Webdiary - Independent, Ethical, Accountable and Transparent
header_02 home about login header_06
sidebar-top content-top

Lest We Forget

I couldn't cope with the Anzac Day Dawn Service. The words I heard made me feel nauseated. After last week's revelations that the military Coalition that Australia is a part of has been following orders in torturing prisoners, it felt as if everything that was good about this day had been tainted by something sinister.

"Australians are fighting all over the world, from Afghanistan, where they serve as part of the Coalition Against Terrorism, to the Solomon Islands." intoned the orator of the ceremony's preamble. He then proceeded to relate the tale of a heroic Aussie digger who had returned "through well aimed fire" to rescue his fallen Afghan interpreter. Then he talked about this soldier's opinions on everything. The parable reeked of old-school propaganda, and the five thousand people present seemed to be buying it.

This was my first Dawn Service in too many years. I went, as I often have, as a mark of respect for the many members of my family who have served in war, and for my grandfather, a Light Horse captain and standard bearer for his regiment at the opening of Canberra's first Parliament House.

It was in his pub that I first became aware of Anzac Day. Pubs were supposed to be shut at nine in the morning, but Kenneth Ross had his doors open to the old soldiers. If the police came by it was understood that they were all pub lodgers, no further questions asked. At any rate, the Anzac Day drinking laws were intended to make sure the soldiers marched in the parade instead of going to the pubs early, and there was no such problem here. I proudly strode along with them, also in uniform as part of the 1st Portland Scout Troop, the medals belonging to various family members pinned to my chest , feeling a sense of honour in participating on behalf of their owners.

We went into Afghanistan to get Osama bin Laden. He wasn't there, but we still are. The Afghan taxi driver who drove me home on Saturday morning put it this way. "Why spill more blood? Look at how many Russians died. If you use force on us, we will respond."

I wonder if, beyond the pretty words, the Afghanistan diggers are going to feel like those who returned from Vietnam. Is that what the speech spin was about? Making sure that those fighting an unpopular war weren't treated with disrespect on their return? The message of Treasurer Wayne Swan from Washington rang alarms. "Young Australians are currently fighting alongside Americans, Britons and numerous others in Afghanistan," he informed us via the ABC radio news. "They are there for many reasons, principally to fight terrorism. But they are also there because a fundamental part of their make-up says they must go." His words resonated with the unusual "Coalition against Terrorism" phrase in the Dawn Service "warm up act". Keyword propaganda as mass public re-education? Was this an attempted one day brainwash? I wouldn't go that far, but there's a nagging suspicion in the back of my mind that we're being prepared not only for the return of our soldiers in Afghanistan now, but for departure of the young people who will represent us there in the future.

Swan is right in say that for some people it's "in their make-up" to consider it their moral obligation to serve as our soldiers. I know one girl marching on Saturday who only turned 18 a few weeks ago. Having trained as an army cadet she was, in the words of her mother, "enlisted" soon after her birthday. Today she went to the base at Wagga Wagga for basic training. I feel a little cruel now in having asked her mum "So what's the class graduation exercise - Afghanistan?" She recoiled before responding, "Don't say that! It's something in all of my kids. They want to serve their country. They want to go to Afghanistan."

In hindsight I wish I'd invited this girl to come along to the arvo session at the Hilton RSL. There she could have met Stanley, a scathing pictorial artist who appears crazy to many, one of the most intelligent people I'll ever meet. If you were watching the South Australian parade broadcast you might have seen him cavorting alongside his comrades in a green suit, swilling from a bottle of red. He'd explained to me on a prior Anzac eve how, as a rural larrikin, he was presented with two options: go to jail or join the army. Stanley did two tours of Vietnam in the SAS. Despite the fact that the doctors gave him and his liver 12 months to live when his health collapsed after the Anzac Day of three years ago, Stan has a quadruple whiskey in his hand, and is buying champagne for the girl I tricked into dancing with him. Later he points to his medals and tells her, "These aren't memories; they're nightmares. Every time I went out into the countryside I knew I was going to kill someone. And I did." I don't know what Stanley would've told the departing recruit, but I do know that it would be an entirely different story to the one she heard at Dawn Service. Stan and a couple of his mates are embarking on rebuilding their rickety RSL into something special. There are new stained glass windows in the roof tiles, designed by the SAS veteran and created by his one-legged mate Fluff. The murals that have been painted onto the wall of the smoking courtyard are precious artwork representing its inhabitants' mindscapes. "When I'm done," says Stan, "they'll never be able to tear this one down."

It's not surprising, on the day after such a militarily auspicious one, that the story of the new torture photographs was buried below thirty-three pages of newspaper. Accompanied by an Abu Graib "happy snap" of a naked male Iraqi writhing in pain from bites by U.S. Army dogs, the piece tells us of "hundreds" of photos about to be released by their Department of Defence thanks to legal pressure from the American Civil Liberties Union. In a media release announcing the May 28 release deadline, the ACLU says that the new torture photos include shots taken in prison camps in Afghanistan:

"The disclosure of these photographs serves as a further reminder that abuse of prisoners in U.S.-administered detention centers was systemic," said Jameel Jaffer, Director of the ACLU National Security Project. "Some of the abuse occurred because senior civilian and military officials created a culture of impunity in which abuse was tolerated, and some of the abuse was expressly authorized. It's imperative that senior officials who condoned or authorized abuse now be held accountable for their actions."

Leaving aside the fact that Australia's Coalition minions would've been aware of the possibility of such a Sunday paper scenario well before Anzac Day, let's have a look at what level of "senior officials" we might be dealing with. Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice are definitely at the top of the pecking order. The fact that Rice condoned waterboarding was published throughout the world's media last week, supported by Cheney's request that torture "success stories" also be declassified. Rumsfeld? Let's just say that he may have known unknowns and unknown unknowns but he knew the new photos existed at least as long ago as 2005, as the ACLU's campaign for their release was long underway by then. As we protested Rummy's presence in Adelaide, he and his aides would have known that they were suppressing information that would've swelled the ranks of protesters into the tens of thousands. He knew his soldiers were committing military atrocities.

"Rummy" was visiting Adelaide for a quick tête-à-tête with Defence Minister Hill and the man who calls Dr Rice "Condi", our erstwhile Foreign Minister Alexander Downer. There was also time for a quick chat with Rupert Murdoch, coincidentally visiting his hometown at the same time.

Some people say you can't trust Alexander Downer further than you could kick him. I can't kick very far. Did Downer know about the court case? The only way he could have been unaware, in my opinion, is if DFAT shielded him from the information; either that or their intelligence-gathering capabilities were nonexistent. At the very least, Downer could not have been unaware of what was going on while he was facilitating the Cheney-organised transfer of David Hicks to South Australia's Yatala prison. If he knew, would he have warned the State's Premier and Attorney-General? Given that they governed for an opposing political party, possibly not. Then there's the Chief of the Australian Federal Police, Mick Keelty. While aware that ASIO and AFP officers had interviewed Australian prisoner Mamdou Habib in Pakistan, Keelty dismissed as deception (and didn't investigate) Habib's claims of torture. Since the Special Rapporteur's submission to the UN Human Rights Council in February, claiming proof that Australian intelligence officers interrogated Australian prisoners in Pakistan at the very places in which they were being tortured, Keelty has said nothing; nor, as far as I can see, has anyone from the Australian Federal Cabinet. If they weren't aware of it before, they certainly were able to read it on Webdiary on April Fools' Day.

President Obama and his countrymen appear to be prepared to face up, at least to some degree, to the atrocities perpetrated in their name. What will be the psychological technique applied to exonerate Americans from the leaked CIA memos and the declassification of the damning photos, some of which are of torture of Afghans? How can the U.S. convict Khalid Sheik Mahommed when the public now knows that the CIA waterboarded KSM around a hundred times in a single month? How can the confessions of anyone who arrived at Cheney's Halliburton-built Guantanamo camp via rendition or a CIA ghost camp be treated as anything but the torture-conditioned responses of people who have been treated worse than is permitted for any animal? What will be the ramifications when photos of tortured Afghans are circulated in Afghanistan?

A Presidential Pardon for all tortured detainees, with all the legal repercussions it might entail, is something that might be considered by Obama as a soothing balm of atonement. The legal consequences for Adelaide's own Guantanamo inmate David Hicks would be just the tip of one of many icebergs of class actions the US Government would face, but compared with the cost of losing control of Afghanistan, this could be considered a small price to pay.

While all of this is going on, what does the Federal Government who inherited the responsibility for our close association with the perpetrators of torture have to say about it? Nothing at all.

If Anzac Day is an indicator, and support by Australians for ongoing participation in the "Coalition against Terror" is being encouraged, I doubt they ever will There's modern Anzac Spirit for you!

[ category: ]

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

The ideologue

Marilyn, a person who advocates a particular idea, concept, theory or ideology zealously, is an ideologue. I understand ideological zealots pushing their ideals against reality and common sense, along with their desperate need to accuse others of their obvious negative reality. Luckily they fail most of the time as their arguments are as flimsy as their experienced knowledge, you fit the bill well.

Marilyn Shepherd: "Those who refuse to fight and kill are the heroes, not those who want to kill and maim with the bogus intent of "bringing democracy", this so-called democracy went to two world wars for England and still maintained the White Australia policy until 1972.”

Your emotional hypocrisy seems without limits, you abuse and insult those who have served, laud your own relative for his service and then turn round saying only those who refuse to serve, are hero's. I admit there's those who want to kill and maim, but they are ideologists, just check out religion for all the evidence you need for this or any other time of history. You fervently support and encourage those whose beliefs use and condone cultural/domestic violence to come to this country, demanding they be allowed to practise and push onto the community the same suppressive culture, yet try to state you are against violence.

It was the free thinking responsible people who changed things in the 1960's-70's, consisting of those who served and their families who didn't want to see any more suffering. Plus the young who saw first hand the effect war had on their families. Most of the young were free from ideology at that time, otherwise the referendums and law changes wouldn't have got up. Ideology is about irrational control, something you're completely familiar with Marylin.

Marylin Shepherd: “It is incumbent on those who disapprove to do it noisily instead of pretending there is honour in wars and those who go to war.”

You really know nothing of those who served, 99% I have known never see honour in war. But those who are forced to go, are very honourable and loyal to family and country. The depth of their fear didn't stop them being prepared to become a sacrifice, in the hope their families could survive.

I'm all for not sending troops to anywhere, except for our own region and when asked by the people. I wonder how your viewers would be accepted Marylin, back in the 1940's when Japan was moving to take over Australia, or your abuse and fervent disdain for returning soldiers after WW2. Maybe next ANZAC day, you should carry a banner to the dawn and 11am services stating, there are no hero's or honourable people named on this memorial or attending the service.

Hate anyone you want - it should be a free world

Marilyn Shepherd: "You seem to think I hate Jews when absolutely nothing could be further from the truth."

I don't know who you hate, and my care factor is even less. I never accused you of hating anyone.

Personally, I don't really see much anti-Semitism (granted I'm not Jewish). Apart from a chunk of Arabs (who hate Jews), I see anti-Semitism in the west along side anti-Irish, anti-Pole, anti-Italian etc. All of these groups have become so integrated into "western" society the contradictions of hating these group or that are ridiculous.

Up until about two decades ago it wasn't unusual for, say, finance, law, and membership only clubs to be divided along cultural-religious lines. A changing and more competitive world pretty well has seen that last vestige of "old school class" off. When I see some yahoo on TV with a swastika tattooed on his neck (quoting Adolf), I don't picture him in the pen fighting off marauding Jewish accountants over at the shower block.

No, you appear to be a serial underdog supporter. A psychological response found in the majority of people (they think of themselves as such). How do people think something absurd as wrestling become the multi-billion dollar industry it is?


Geoff Pahoff: "Group memory has been replaced by group amnesia. The lessons of WW2 about racism, modern war mass killing and genocide are forgotten. The old monsters thought long dead are raised. The evil ghosts are stalking the world again. That kid scares me more than all the acts of the terrorists because it's a sign that the terrorists and their western accomplices are winning."

What scares me is people who have the attitude you have, no care for anyone but your agenda. Nothing that happened in the last century or this one is any different than any other century, it all boils down to ideology, which is the cause of all wars and in the main, religious ideology. Genocide is proudly displayed in the bibles and since has been carried out by every religious institution against those who differ in their outlook on life, throughout history.

This is Australia Geoff, every religion has been involved in the genocide of our indigenous, including Jews, as well as indigenous from all round the world. I hate war as I've experienced it first hand, but I deeply respect the actions of my peers and forebears who gave their lives and minds to stop war. Even if it was misguided, they require thousands of times more respect than the words and thoughts of those who do all in their power to belittle them, abuse their sacrifice and certainly are not worthy to be called Australian, just bludgers on the nation.

Alga, you are also an ideologue

Just because people don't happen to have this slavish devotion to people taught to kill other people does not make them unworthy, it makes them worthy folk indeed. Like the refuseniks in Israel who refuse to murder and maim Palestinians, like the conscientious objectors during the Vietnam illegal invasion and genocide, like those who refuse to kill and maim in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Nothing ignoble about that. Any my grandfather who spent six years in the piss, the shit, the vomit and the blood during WW11 said always it was the greatest exercise in futility ever in the world and he fought like a dervish to keep his youngest son from going to Vietnam.

Those who refuse to fight and kill are the heroes, not those who want to kill and maim with the bogus intent of "bringing democracy", this so-called democracy went to two world wars for England and still maintained the White Australia policy until 1972.

What sort of person thinks that protecting a democracy that still considers aborigines as part of the flora and fauna act is a good think to fight for?

We turned away Jews when they fled. "We didn't have a racial problem," said T W White at Evian. Yet they were stealing aboriginal kids from their parents in the tens of thousands at the time.

Even today in this marvellous democracy minorities are abused, demonised, vilified, treated like Dr Haneef and others have been and so on.

It is incumbent on those who disapprove to do it noisily instead of pretending there is honour in wars and those who go to war.

On being smack bang on-topic

I will not respond to your point about trauma, Anthony. I do not understand it at all. Therefore there is nothing I can usefully say beyond that I have obviously missed your point by more than a Wobbly's red card on May Day.

Your other point? My few modest posts on this thread have all been about loss of memory on a huge and terrifying scale. In fact it is the full blooded attack on memory, that is the quickly becoming the defining feature of our age, that scares me much more than any terrorists' bombs.

Last night I kind of watched Q&A, as you do. One incident caught my attention like being slapped with a live fish. A young student type, barely out of nappies, asked a "question" that, with a little prodding, went something like this:

" How does genocide in the twentieth century [of the Jews] justify genocide [of the Palestinians] in the twenty-first century?"

Not long ago, anyone who said anything like that would have been automatically dismissed for what they were. Some kind of dribbling lunatic not to be taken seriously. Some kind of fanatic or mental defective, probably spiteful or even hateful, best ignored. Probably there is a history of particularly grubby criminal behaviour. Leave the diagnosis, and treatment, to the experts.

But not this kid. He (or was it a she? Strangely I can't remember) was fresh faced, smiling and apparently earnest. The kid was smug and obviously pleased with himself when she sat down. Incredibly, a portion of the audience applauded.

Naturally a kid that young cannot be expected to have a memory reach longer than who has the ID card let alone from before she was born. That is why we invest so much in the group memory. Teachers, academics, writers, spiritual leaders, politicians, reporters, journalists, commentators, thinkers, community leaders. It's called getting the very basics right. You know. Like truth.

For a kid like that to say what she did can only mean she neither knows or perhaps even cares about what she is talking about or even about the meaning of the words she uses. She has been badly let down by people who should know better and the rest of us have lost our investment. Group memory has been replaced by group amnesia. The lessons of WW2 about racism, modern war mass killing and genocide are forgotten. The old monsters thought long dead are raised. The evil ghosts are stalking the world again. That kid scares me more than all the acts of the terrorists because it's a sign that the terrorists and their western accomplices are winning.

So regretfully, Anthony, I must reject your allegation that I am off-topic on this thread. I wish I was. It hurts that I'm right on-topic.

Not guilty.

Quite right too

As you say Geoff the topic of the thread is about memory. In this instance the issue is specifically Australian memory, history and war. However, it is well recognised within psychology and increasingly in history that trauma can operate on memory in very contingent ways.

It is important to recognise and memorialise, for example, what happened to the Jews and others in the course of the shoa. The French have struggled and succeeded in numerous small ways in memorialising what happened, to whom, when and where. I recall reading a small wall plaque attached the the street side wall of a school in the second arrondisement of Paris which simply noted that on a particular date a particular number of Jewish students were removed from the school by French police and sent to death camps and that there were no known survivors. A small public memory.

Trauma can impact not merely memories but rational capacities as well. You will recall in my post that I said that you play the trauma game by hectoring any divergent voice until such time as they can be constructed as an anti-semite and then you call foul. Here is how you describe the young person who diverges from your account of current Israeli policies towards Palestinians and suggests that there is a genocide in process:

Not long ago, anyone who said anything like that would have been automatically dismissed for what they were. Some kind of dribbling lunatic not to be taken seriously. Some kind of fanatic or mental defective, probably spiteful or even hateful, best ignored. Probably there is a history of particularly grubby criminal behaviour.Leave the diagnosis, and treatment, to the experts.

This is clearly hate speech of the first order. I can only say that I am pleased that the young person did not have to deal with that sort of invective and rage from you at a personal level and that you were confined to impotently spitting your loathing at a screen.

But hey, if you feel that strongly why don't you exercise your right of return. Tool up buddy and get it on as you so clearly need to do.

Richard:  Correct me if I'm wrong, Anthony, but it looked to me like Geoff was discussing cultural entrenchment of racist attitudes.  Marquis of Queensbury rules please, gents.

not again, Richard

Richard Tonkin: "Correct me if I'm wrong, Anthony, but it looked to me like Geoff was discussing cultural entrenchment of racist attitudes."

Ok, Richard, you're corrected, if only by an onlooker.

Geoff was actually providing an example of  "...cultural entrenchment of racist attitudes", as evidenced in his as usual inaccurate comments on this issue.

It was, in fact, Anthony who was trying to honestly discuss "cultural entrenchment of racist attitudes".

But as seems to be the emerging pattern, concerning the black propaganda smear of Palestinians based on racism, "None so blind as those who will not see", but hopefully the readers can compare the postings and make up their minds what the real situation is.

Second order hate speech for anyone?

You're not wrong, Richard. I suggest what I was saying was very clear and Anthony, having lost the argument, did what he and people like him always do. Any filthy distort in a storm will do for the ratbag left. Including accusing me of hate speech of children. Note the anger glowing from the man. These people always get white hot livid when their beliefs are questioned, let alone challenged.  Just like all the religiously obsessed. 

"But hey, if you feel that strongly why don't you exercise your right of return. Tool up buddy and get it on as you so clearly need to do".

I don't know exactly what this means. But it sounds pretty offensive even by the standards of the ratbag and fascist left. No need for any rules, Richard. Queensbury or otherwise. This debate is over.

Not in my view

Which is that ... the young person in question has probably come into contact with material suggesting that Israeli polices are genocidal towards Palestinians. There are legally defined objective terms for defining genocide which may or may not fit what Israel is doing. I don't know. However, there is a clear position put forward by non-Zionist Jews who argue that Zionists play on guilt over the Holocaust to justify their policies towards Palestinians which is probably the point at stake. I have linked these people on other threads and won't bother again. There is (was) a tendency within genocide studies to want to use the Holocaust as the paradigm example of genocide which limits identifying other forms of no less deadly and destructive genocide in so far as they do not conform to the European death camp model.

Other than that I stick to my original point but on this thread, which I believe would be best served by either limiting the discussion to Australian matters or, failing that, emphasising the relevance of what one is saying, I've nought further to add.

Cheers and thanks for the moderation.

Trauma repetition compulsion

I have read the thread on ANZAC Day and Australian identity with interest up to the point where those diarists unable to contain their originary trauma commenced dragging up issues totally unrelated to the thread. Specifically, Geoff, whose capacity to play the trauma game is astonishing and clear evidence of what I mean by trauma repetition compulsion. The game consists of a crude form of goading until such time as any divergent voice can be constructed into the role of the anti-semite whereupon he cries foul.

Psychological trauma is fascinating to those in its grip but the trauma of others is of little interest to those who have made the (often immense) effort to heal themselves. Geoff thinks that it is someone's job to heal his trauma. Well, it ain't like that mate. That is your job and yours alone. Why not do it?

But back to the thread: the meaning of ANZAC Day and how it is commemorated is probably the most significant site at which Australian identity can be contested. For years I was repulsed by the way that reactionary forces within the RSL had captured the meaning of the day and turned it into what appeared to me to be a celebration of war. That was most of my youth.

I approved of the infamous feminist attack on the Cenotaph (sometime in the 1970's?) in commemoration of the women and children who had been raped and maimed by men in war. I was aghast at Howard's capture of the day, the way the various sporting bodies (AFL, NRL) have tied gladiatorial sport to the day and the way crowds of largely historically ignorant "Aussie Aussie Aussie" oicks started descending on Gallipoli for the day. One wonders what the memorial poem by Attaturk meant to them. One cringes in front of Turkish people at the thought of crowds of slobbering drunks celebrating Australia's identity every year by puking on each other and singing Johnny Farnham songs.

I could go on.

I am however very proud of those diggers who urged me to join the peace movement. Proud of my family history of non-conformist conscientious objection and radical socialist activism. Proud of many other things about the way that ANZAC Day is treated by Australians not least of all the army of historians who've done superb work to validate the significance of the day in our efforts to create a peace loving nation.

The best anti-war slogan I ever saw was an old one of the Wobblies:

"A bayonet is a weapon with a member of the working class on either end".

I think that the message there is generalisable.

Nauseated? A thousand fold

Paul Walter: "I should mention that I don't to subcribe to Holocaust denial, altho am critical (nauseated?) of the way the Zionists have milked the Holocaust to strengthen their emotion-based claim to Palestine."

This statement  has about the same moral tenor as:

"I should mention that I don't to subcribe to rape as such, nor do I agree with those who say that all allegations of rape are false, altho am critical (nauseated?) of the way women and the Feminists have milked rape to strengthen their emotion-based claim that women should be free from fear of attack, whether indoors or outdoors."

... only with the volume turned up a thousand fold.

As I have said so often

No, Geoff. As I've said many, many times, am as annoyed with the West in general as Israel, which is only the tip of a big iceberg. It's a system (would axis be a better term?).

But by the same token the murderers of Gaza, Shattilla, Lebanon and Deir Yassin are not going to escape my contempt by hiding behind "it's a system", any more than non Semitic misanthropes, from the grasping oil transnationals, armaments and mining giants and financiers, and their mouthpieces from Foster Dulles and Joe McCarthy, through Huntingdon, to Cheney and Bush are.

No more than I would just blame the Kapos, when it was the Nazis that set up the vile WW2 ghettos and camps, would I blame just some Israeli troops and the misguided more "ultra" zealot essentialists who seem to have taken over Israel, because I know that it suits the Americans and others for the situation to be just the way it is.

Otherwise my analysis indeed would be "essentialist", eg tending to racist, when I would exclusively be blaming Jewish Israeli zealots for the wrongs done to the Palestinians. But am not anti-Semitic and have Jewish friends, and I know Zionist attitudes are not basically different from other forms of elitist poison.

Western civilization in general "owed" their Jewish minorities, after centuries of hostilities.

So what was owed should have come out of their pockets; not a poor bystander people like the Palestinians, who now are arguably the New Jews, in their Gazan and West Bank ghettos.

It's like I owe you a tenner, so I mug the old lady across the street!

But let's not forget you (eg, if it applies sin your case) the Zionist Lobby from Weitzman onwards egged me on, because it was a convenient solution for your problem, too.


Two wrongs do not a right make. And would I criticise other examples of colonialism and imperialism, employing the critiques of some of the finest minds in history (Marx, Trotsky, Adorno, Marcuse, Benjamin etc) if I was merely a dull-witted anti-Semite, which is such a similar species to the Hansonist or the redneck of the deep south of America, or the fundy cranks in Afghanistan, or the likes of Avigdor Lieberman!

As to women, are you a misogynist?

You would deny us the bell-like sound of their dulcet tones , a music that has wafted us through the otherwise pointless mundanity of our arcane male daily living, thru all and every of our days from birth?

Actually, most women probably are not male-hating separatist rads, eg essentialists, and I quite agree that women (like Palestinians) have a right to expect protection from those of us who rightly value them, not least since they are "us" in the most fundamental of ways, from aggression derived from the basest of motives.

Friend bashing

Paul Walter: "But [I] am not anti-Semitic and have Jewish friends, and ..."

I don't get it. I think I understand why so many people feel compelled to incessantly deny allegations that have not been made ("Just because I'm a critic of Israeli policy doesn't mean I'm an antisemite" ... etc etc) But how come every anti-American, Israel basher in the world has Jewish friends? After all there are so many Israel bashers and so few Jews you wouldn't think there were enough to go around.

I have a theory about this. I reckon it's the same little group of Jews. They make it their business to be friends with anybody who has something nasty to say about America or Israel. You know. Just like the little group of Jews who are constantly quoted by anybody who has something nasty to say about Israel or America. Perhaps it's the same little group and they have about ten million friends each.

It's a living I suppose.

Paul: "As to women, are you a misogynist?"

Not at all, Paul. Not at all. In fact some of my best friends are women.

When the autocue goes rogue

Marilyn Shepherd: "Jews actually don't get mentioned in Bacque's book but their disgusting treatment at the hands of the allies after WW11 is well documented by MacDonogh."

So Jews were badly treated? And by the allies? The very same allies that now protect Israel beyond "sanity"? The "Jews" being the very same people who play up atrocities for all they're worth, "and more".

I think someone, somewhere, lost the script.


The allies herded Jews into wire cages just like concentration camps.

I didn't write the book mate, just read it and was sickened.

You should also have a look on the websites about the Evian Conference and our attitude in 1938 to accepting jewish refugees.

You seem to think I hate Jews when absolutely nothing could be further from the truth. I am disgusted and sickened by the hypocrisy of our country, the British, the US and others who let millions of innocent people die and ignored them after the war as well.

Just as we now ignore the millions of Iraqi refugees and Palestinian refugees, as we ignored the innocent German civilians as they died in their millions after WW11, just as we sat on our hands while the Indonesians murdered 183,000 East Timorese and about 300,000 West Papuans, as we ignore the plight of the Darfurians, the Sudanese, the Somalis, the Tamil civilians, the Kurds, the Afghan refugees and many others while we feather our own nests and strip places of their resources.

My problem with Israel is the same as my problem with us, the west, the brutal Arab dictators we suck up to like Mubarak and the King of Saudi Arabia and others because they have oil.

Injustice and cruelty. It is never warranted and never will be.

That is my problem, the cant and hypocrisy of the west who ignored the genuine plight of Jewish refugees and now bloat descendents of those refugees so they can continue the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, rape the resources and use the Israelis as human shields against the nasty Arabs.

If you think anything else, you aint' been reading.

We have forgotten

It's too late, Trevor. We have forgotten.

We should call those who served in the trenches that their job is not over, that their country needs them again, not as warriors, but as educators and truth-tellers.

Or, we could ask the aborigines and refugees. Unfortunately, they have little credibility.

Pull the other

Pardon me, Eliot, but are you not a little naive, or possibly just selective, in turn, as to your sources.

Nizcor is a Zionist site.

There is a vested interest, for these, in maintaining sympathy for Israel, in this case through the boostering of Holocaust sympathy propaganda?

And what of McDonough and others who also claim that conditions in Europe were whitewashed, in the interests of "history from the victors" viewpoint?

I should mention that I don't to subcribe to Holocaust denial, altho am critical (nauseated?) of the way the Zionists have milked the Holocaust to strengthen their emotion- based claim to Palestine.

But on the basis of my reading of Solzhenitsyn's"Gulag Archipelgo" alone, the slaughter in Europe by no means stopped on VE day and I think its fair to say that the Axis powers would have suffered even worse in subsequent retribution, justifiably or other wise, had the Western Allies not woken up to the fact that Germans would have to be won over, to provide a bulwark against the Soviets.

...It's got bells on

Paul Walter: "Nizcor is a Zionist site."

What's that got to do with Stephen E. Ambrose or James Bacque, who are the historians I'm quoting?

Stephen E. Ambrose may be many things, but he's not a Zionist, and he's not even Jewish.

And it's fairly obvious that James Bacque isn't a Zionist either, or else I rather doubt he'd enjoy the support of so many Holocaust denial blogs.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that James Bacque is a proven, outright liar like David Irving or the gormless dimwits that fool associates with.

Bacque is just incompetent and milked for all he's worth by the Holocaust denial industry who selectively cherry-pick his account of "allied" (actually mostly Soviet) "atrocities" against the forces of the Third Reich in the dying days and immediate aftermath of the defeat of Nazi Germany.

Poor things.

And what if I had quoted a Zionist source? The point is not whom I quote, it's what they say.

It wouldn't matter if you quoted Moses himself claiming that the Western allies conducted a genocide against the Nazis, that wouldn't make it true, would it?

James Bacque and his ilk are even ridiculed in Germany itself.

What does that tell you?


Eliot, Bacque does not deny the bloody holocaust, he simply points out that other people beside Jews were killed by the allies.

You should read books before deciding to whine about them.

Jews actually don't get mentioned in Bacque's book but their disgusting treatment at the hands of the allies after WW11 is well documented by MacDonogh.

For christ's sake why is saying that Germans were murdered after the war and shouldn't have been anti-Semitic?

Straw man

Marilyn Shepherd: "Eliot, Bacque does not deny the bloody holocaust, he simply points out that other people beside Jews were killed by the allies."

Readers will note immediately that at no point did I say that Mr Bacque denied the Holocaust.

His book and its factually incorrect statements about German war time casualties are merely employed in a selective way by revisionists and Third Reich apologists to mitigate the crimes of the Nazis by 'contextualising' them in some imaginary 'genocide' supposedly perpetrated against the Germans by the 'western' allies.

Sad case

Marilyn Shepherd: “It's all an abomination and ANZAC day makes me puke - they stand and bleat "lest we forget" blah, blah, blah, while people who have done us no harm are blasted to bits and we still lock up the refugees who escaped the hells we have created.”

Marilyn, you're in the wrong country, you need to be in a more fervent ideological environment so you can promote your agenda of disharmony and hate for anything Australian.

I doubt you'd ever understand how those who fought for this country, no matter the reason, feel about violence. In my experience they are the ones who abhor violence and the outcomes of ideological conflicts. When you've experienced it first hand and can see how wrong the ideology behind it is, you never want it to happen again.

Unlike you, I don't denigrate my country, nor those who gave their lives for people like you, who've made a career out of running Australians down. Anzac day returns memories of my grand fathers, uncles, Father and the friends I made in the Navy and RSLA. We don't glorify war, Marilyn, we remember it's futility and our loses. We do celebrate those who gave their lives for their mates and the efforts we all put in. But like all programmed ideologists, it's something you'd never understand.

Some of my mob, didn't even have the vote, but in the services they were all equal and no matter how they may have thought, when it came to protecting Australia, they did it. Sadly you want to destroy that heritage and give the country away, along with any sane future we could have.

What garbage

Yeah our heritage. Murders, massacres, ethnic cleansing, concentration camps and the theft of children.

Some bloody legacy, Alga.

The land has been raped and pillaged, the waters poisoned, the countryside I grew up in has been turned into a desert.

And tens of thousands of young men died for what?

So we can keep indulging in lunatic wars while babbling inanely once a year "lest we forget"?

Stupid is all it is.


Some nuance, Alga!

Marilyn Shepherd isn't  "denigrating" Australia or Australians,  just expressing a healthy frustration at what she feels to be their denseness.No one else is perfect, why persist withthe silly notion that we are?

To express a scepticism, or not "buy" an ideological line (uncritical nationalism?), is not the same thing as "denigrating", which is just rubbishing in the face of , due cause. 

"My country right or wrong" is no help. As with a family, denying a problem does no more than avoid overdue treatment. To see your country and people "warts and all", maybe more painful for true Aussies, but in the end the least dangerous, as twentieth century history amply demonstrates.

That's as we soberly recall, on ANZAC day,  the consequences of all the false pride and jingoism that bought so much misery in the first half of it. 

Another war atrocity

James Bacque outlines the murder of between 9 and 13.7 million German civilian by the lovey allies after WW11.   The Australians served in the British quarter starving orphans to death, and children and forcibly evicting Germans to Berlin where Bacque shows that 6 million of 15 million people expelled under the Morgenthau plan have just disappeared and even in 1997 they had not been declared dead.

The gentle Czechs slashed the achilles tendons of the German women and raped them until they died, the Russians raped any female between 8 - 90, the US and all the others were not better.

This was a post war crime of mammoth proportions devised in the US by Henry Morgenthau and carried out under the Potsdam agreement of 1944 by Dwight Eisenhower who declared that German soldiers did not come under the Geneva conventions and simply starved them to death.

What is monstrous is that this crime from 1946-50 was happening while the US and UK were carrying on the bogus Nuremberg trials and in 1948 the terrorist gangs in Palestine did the same thing - they expelled 800,000 or 80% of the Palestinian population and sent propaganda machines to Europe to claim the unarmed Palestinian farmers were "trying to push them into the sea', the UN pictures taken while they stood around and watched show that it was the Palestinians pushed into the sea.

The true crimes of the west in Europe after WW11 though have scarcely ever been examined as we pretend we are the good guys.

It's all an abomination and ANZAC day makes me puke - they stand and bleat "lest we forget" blah, blah, blah, while people who have done us no harm are blasted to bits and we still lock up the refugees who escaped the hells we have created.

Humbug - listen to Eric Bogle's No Man's Land or It's as if they know where he describes the killing of the horses of the lighthorse men, or The band played Walzing Matilda, Or Never again, remember or Other people's children and if you can stomach those have a crack at I was only 19 and Safe behind the wire, the death of an agent orange campaigner who shot his brains out in "a rust red commodore".

I should add that Bacque's book makes that other one, After the Reich, look like a Mary Poppins picnic tale.

I might review James Bacque's book for Webdiary

Marilyn Shepherd: "James Bacque outlines the murder of between 9 and 13.7 million German civilian by the lovey allies after WW11."

Here's some information from James Bacque:

"The fall of the Soviet empire in 1989 provided a spectacular test of the truth: If the KGB archives recorded how many Germans died in Soviet camps, the world would know how many died in the West."

"In 1992, I went to the KGB archives in Moscow, where I was permitted to troll the long, gloomy aisles, free to read and photocopy anything I wanted. And there I found the reports from KGB Colonel I. Bulanov and others showing that 450,600 Germans had died in Soviet camps. Given the figure of 1.4 million deaths, this meant that close to one million had died in Western camps."

"In addition, the KGB records show that the Soviets had also imprisoned hundreds of thousands of civilians, of whom many thousands died."

"This was the shadow of a greater tragedy, the fate of German civilians."

Is that what you are referring to, Marilyn?

Of course, not everyone's so well disposed to James Bacque.

For example, historian Stephen E. Ambrose, more or less derides James Bacque as an incompetent historical revisionist fraud:

"With regard to another of Mr. Bacque's conclusions, he arrives at his sensational figure of one million dead through a system of analysis that has left almost everyone who has tried to check his statistics and methods befuddled.

He did make one mistake because of a typing error by a clerk. He saw a figure of 70,000 prisoners in an Army medical report and then calculated the total death rate for all prisoners in American hands on the basis of that number and the 21,000 deaths also mentioned in the report. That is, he arrived at his most basic conclusion, a death rate in all camps of 30 percent, by dividing the 21,000 deaths by the 70,000 prisoners. However, the 70,000 figure should have been 10 times higher. All other figures in the document make it clear that the correct number of prisoners was 700,000. This would make the death rate not 30 percent but 3 percent. "

Anyway, it would be good to read your source on Bacque, Marilyn. What is it?

The book

I just read the book, Eliot. It is not revisionist as it is well documented and from the archives of the countries involved.

James Bacque - incompetent and revisionist fellow traveller

Well, that would be unsual for James Bacque, as his major work Other Losses is widely recognised as a revisionist resource a very best, and the author as incompetent as a researcher. 

"Recently (September/October 1994) those who would argue the historical truth of the Holocaust on the Usenet newsgroup alt.revisionism have taken up as one of their sources the book  Other Losses written by James Bacque.  (Full title:  Other Losses: An Investigation into the Mass Deaths of German Prisoners at the Hands of the French and Americans After World War II)"

Also, Bacque is regarded as incompetent:

"That German prisoners were treated very badly in the months immediately after the war...is beyond dispute. All in all, however, Bacque's thesis and mortality figures cannot be taken as accurate".

- Professor S.P. Mackenzie in J. Vance, ed. The Encyclopedia of Internment and Prisoners of War, 294

Professor Mackenzie is regarded as a leading academic historian of the second world war.

Perhaps you could tell us what the book is you are reading and we could consult it?

Crimes and Mercies

Yeah, yeah, only Jews died in WW11 and the US hate to shown to be the savages they have always been.

The book Crimes and Mercies;, published 1997 and not one person so far has disputed his finding.

Please see above

Please see my comment above regarding at least two eminent historians disputing Bacque's "finding", in particular the outright errors contained in Crimes and Mercies, and also Bacque's own statement which at odds with your claim.

Be assured, James Bacque is not considered a reputable authority on World War Two, or anything else for that matter.

It's risible that anyone would cite him as a source.


Marilyn Shepherd, after spending the last hour reading about James Bacque and his books, I have come to the conclusion that he is as bad at numbers as you are.

You seem to think that adding a few noughts on does not matter, as long as it makes a good story.

parallel histories

Well, that's the good thing about revisionist historians. They can just make things up as they go along.

Francesca da Rimini

I must admit I needed Fiona's comment for a final penny-drop, as to what Richard Tonkin was really getting at, which is surprising since I was thinking last night watching what foolish exercises these wars are, as one tries to work thru the great glob of treacly poli-speak to ponder the real motives involved as to some thing like the current situation in Afghanistan.

Of course, since last night we have had Obama all but come clean, with today's statement concerning the real issue for them: teetering Pakistan, previously covert under the euphemisms Afghanistan and Taliban (ironically, examples of original US creations).

Of course, it's a mess the current era finds itself saddled with due to previous mistakes and its dimensions go way beyond just Afghanistan, or even if inclusion with Pakistanis allowed. The latest reports from Iraq and Lebanon, and superficially unrelated but actually quite connected issues like the Recession, were touched on by Obama: as he said, he has two wars and an economic system on the blink to deal with.

So all the more spin must be generated to justify Quixotic current actions against a backdrop of vested interests that must to be not offended, for fear of their reach and spite.

Still more resources are thus to be wasted cleaning the messes created thru the cleaning of yet earlier messes, often for the most base of reasons, while a sceptical, disempowered and often starving world looks on, as the example of the Iraqi on the news tonight noting that years after the arrival of the greatest of current world powers, there is still no more than a skerrick of electricity in a place still racked by bombs, poverty and communal strife.

"Mission accomplished", indeed!

Same with the recession. All those $trillions wasted propping up thieves, so that the problems they have created are not made even worse than they are for everyone else, because the realities of power, patronage and influence maintain a system based on war and poverty, so that the global poor must suffer worse than ever, while the few really responsible walk away with multi million bonuses for the ruin they have bought down on so many others.

And the band played...

My daughter attended the national folkie's fest in Canberra recently.  To my delight she met many other men and women my age who she described as "just like you".  Hmmm. She was stunned and moved by Eric Bogle's rendition of his own anthemic anti-war song.  And the fact that the audience sang along on some of the chorus like it was a hymn.

It is a hymn.

We have learnt about war. We haven't forgotten. The peace movement has  ensured that no-one died in vain by teaching our children well. 

My induction into the peace movement was by diggers.  They were active moratoriumists and offered the support necessary for a young bloke to take part. 

The real lesson here is that it never will ever again be possible to send masses of soldiers to die in pointless wars.  It is an unpopular business these days.

What I did in my hols

This year I had an extended Easter break in Canberra,  partly to see my parents, and partly to act as tourist guide to my friend Cheryl, who had last been to Canberra forty years ago.

Cheryl was particularly keen on visiting the Australian War Memorial – and I, who had spent much of my youth in the place (well, after all, it was just down the hill from home, and where better to let loose a bored kid with a penchant for history?) – I was no less enthusiastic. Particularly because me old dad has spent the last twenty years or so trying to stop me, and then me and my daughter from going there – because it “glorifies” war. Particularly because the last time I managed to get there – with daughter and (grand)mother in tow – I had to escort two weeping females out of the place in under 45 minutes.

So Cheryl and I ended up spending about nine hours there – over three days. All I could say to my father at the end of it was that the place does not in any sense portray war in any glorious fashion. One of the most vivid memories of this visit is what I saw on the wall after inspecting the post 1945 conflicts section – which had such powerful exhibits as the helicopter evacuation in Vietnam, and (even more moving) the rendition of the battle of Long Tan – and these were the words:

Despite the efforts of all those who served in conflicts from 1945 to today peace remains as elusive as ever.

Lest we forget, indeed.

The battle for the the museums

Indeed Fiona Reynolds, it appears that the struggle for identity formation has been won in the War Museum by rational forces.  It is a terrific place these days.  No more simplistic glorification of war or worse, the writing out of significant voices and events in Australian history, which is how it used to be. 

My own family history features a great uncle who was a conscientious objector prior to being sent white feathers, signifying cowardice, in his small coal mining town.  He joined a field medical corps and distinguished himself in battle in that role. Happily, these days, the War Museum gives some space to the long Australian anti-conscriptionist tradition and the exhibits make an effort to relate war to democracy and citizenship.  


Anthony Nolan , that tale of is of much interest to me, since I had an uncle in the medical corps in WW2, because of his Christian pacifist  values. He was decorated for  rescuing another digger, I think in New Guinea.

350 more troops to Afghanistan

Rudd's just announced.  Will write more later.

Lest we forget

A modest war monument between paddocks and a cattle yard is all that is left of the Tableland town of Evelyn Scrubs - but every Anzac Day the sun rises on a large crowd there.

Between the choruses of kookaburras, about 200 people stood silently on Saturday as the Last Post rang out across farming land once worked by a small community that sent 41 men to World War II.

Many did not make it home.

All over Far North Queensland on ANZAC day small communities stop to remember the fallen. It is a chance for us to reflect on past sacrifices. Sacrifices that have enabled us to live in freedom today.

It is a reminder to the young of the high price and self sacrifice our fathers and their fathers paid. We would all be better off if we valued self sacrifice more than greed. If we remembered our war heroes as well as our football heroes.

I agree

Richard, yes I agree with what you say.

If we were genuine about our defence, DEFENCE, look it up in a dictionary, we would go Swiss.

But it is costly. Instead we allow US profits in trade to pay for their bases all around the world. That way, we can say they are the guilty. We know how to get people to torture others. It inevitably gets out. It never actually achieves the stated objective, but what is the true objective of this conditioning? Why do we create killers out of our special forces?  What happens to them when they are released from sevice?

The US armed forces are a form of dole, soaking off unemployed and leaving jobs for others to fill. These people frequently have the highest aspirations. They perform under fire. Rarely are they defending anything worth the effort. Their sacrifice is always in vain. Vanity is one reason for armed forces. Such a waste. If we were to be invaded, it would be by the USA or the Chinese. Next century it might be the Indians. What happened to Harold Holt? Whitlam is still around. He wasn't disappeared. There are costs for allowing gangsters to control our largest ally. Training our young people to participate in the armed forces is not a bad thing, but intervening in small countries as an adjunct to the USA is not a foreign policy. But it has not changed. Nor will we become a Republic.

The whole point of ANZAC Day is that we should not forget that sending our children off to die and to kill in a foreign war, often led by donkeys, who care nothing for their allies, is a stupid tragedy. But we keep doing it. That is obscene.

Time to remember

Richard, I went to the Dawn Service in Cairns. I found it to be a moving ceremony - it is a time for us to reflect on the real costs of war and to pay homage to those who have paid the ultimate price and to their families.

Politicians often send our soldiers off to war for the wrong reasons. If we have an objection to war we should focus on the politicians, not the soldiers.

Many of the Vietnam veterans are still struggling with the way some in the Australian population treated them on their return, Soldiers often in their late teens or early twenties have no voice in which wars Australia decides to fight.

In the Vietnam war many were forced to go - it was a conscripted army. No wonder so many were on the streets protesting, where are they today?

They have done some of the most horrible tasks imaginable and often pay the price for the rest of their lives. Their families also suffer. What is wrong with setting aside a day to remember the sacrifices that have been made to protect our country?

Respect the soldiers and protest against the politicians.

Soldiers forge strong bonds in combat and some like to meet up once a year on ANZAC day. They drink and party. I guess they are a reflection of our society.

easy, easy...

In a sense I understand Alga's response.

He's been given a fairly hostile reception elsewhere when playing it straight and is now reacting. This is what goes wrong when middle of the roaders are lumped in with calculating right wingers - the beginnings of  an alienation in these created by those who should know better, when trying to win dificult arguments, whereby progressives (albeit for the best of reasons, usually) only strengthen the hand of the reactionaries by demanding too much, too quick of the undecided.

But Richard's was a very good thread opener Alga: you have missed its point entirely. We have to know what we are fighting for. "My country right or wrong" is no longer good enough. It's uncritical nature allows too easily , a sort of slippery slope invitatons for governments, that has its final, irreversible culmination in regimes like the German one of WW2.

Fortunately Richard perhaps understands a little better also by going against a trend of elitist vitriol, although I urge him to retain patience and good faith for the same reasons as I will shortly offer Alga.

Alga, please don't react out of frustration at the lack of comprehension elsewhere. You may lose sight of people  and ideas of the kind most compatible with your own spirit.

You're a bit late...

Richard:  "What will be the psychological technique applied to exonerate Americans from the leaked CIA memos and the declassification of the damning photos, some of which are of torture of Afghans?"

Perhaps the same technique that was used to bury Australian war crimes during our own first military expedition abroad as a nation:

 “It seems a cruel thing to ride up to a farmhouse and give the inmates, always women and children, ten minutes to clear out what personal effects they can get together and then to set fire to the place,” wrote another officer from Sydney, “but when their husbands and brothers are up on the hills behind sniping at us, what else can you expect?”

In any case, most soldiers enjoyed looting and burning. “The best part of this game is sacking the houses,” confessed Lieutenant Douglas Rich from Queensland, “ although we poor devils of officers don’t get much of the fun as in most cases it is forbidden and we have to keep the men back.”

That was the Boer war. So, to cover that up, we wrote a whole lot of inane blather about our heroics at Gallipoli and celebrate that, instead.

Anyone can get on their high horse...

Insulting article

Hijacking ANZAC day trying to make those who served and those who died for this country feel guilty is obscene, particularly as the author seems to have no idea what Anzac day really represents to those remaining from any conflict.


Veterans do get pissed off when services are hijacked by elitists with agenda's and I'm sure if Richard ever sat down and asked veterans on other than ANZAC or Long Tan day how they saw it, he may be surprised at their replies, but still probably couldn't understand.


 Dumping ANZAC day in with the barbarity of the USA, who don't celebrate or recognise our days of remembrance, is disgusting and shows someone who has no empathy or understanding.

At our small country dawn service, we concentrate on remembering the soldiers who fought and died, and the dwindling number of our mates. Our service didn't make us feel sick, we understand how stupid the ruling elitists are and how they care little for anyone but themselves and their opinions. We are there for our mates and relatives we never got to meet, or who lost their sons, because of elitists and their ideological wars. It also allows our community to show their appreciation, not belittle their sometimes involuntary efforts.

We did experience one sordid occasion during the service as we stood in the dark and pouring rain, the local parson was asked to say a few words. There was an audible groan from veterans when his first words were, “oh god of love and peace”, then went on babbling about how god was looking after the dead and how he would give us all salvation. You may understand why he was completely ignored at the gunfire breakfast and left before eating.

Want insulting?

Disparaging conmments regarding my empathy and comprehension skills notwithstanding, Alga, I agree with pretty well everything you've written.  We're coming at the same thing, methinks,  from opposite ends of the spectrum. 

It is the exact kind of bastardry of the day that you abhor that drove me away from the Dawn Service.  I perceived the event to have been hijacked in support of U.S. interests, part of a spin to create more public support for our continued involvment in Coalition activities in Afghanistan.  It was the hijacking that incensed me most.

In my parents' house there's a picture of Uncle Alan, shot in France just a few days before the Armistice, and in the frame is a postcard from his breast pocket, a neat bullet hole in the middle.  Don't tell me, mate, that I have no understanding of Anzac Day.  Invoking Anzac tradition to inspire our kids to fight in Afghanistan is what I find truly insulting.  Do you?

War crimes

War is a crime. But defending yourself is not. The Dardenelles were a waste, as was WWI. Whom were we defending? Oh yes, Belgian nuns being raped. By Germans. Doesn't really have the same impact now does it?

But we had the first Iraq war because babies were being thrown out of incubators. The whole point was to defend Saddam Hussein by killing those conscripts who did not come from Tikrit or the Ba'ath party. When the victorious coalition lined up on the border, Bush announced a Shia revolt in the south. Many Shia died. Expecting help from the coalition of the willing. And the kurds in the north also. Very successful war. And on the oil and poppy pipeline to the west. 

Oh war is a splendid, gloroius, sacred thing. Anyone who questions it is deranged and evil! So holy to remember those who were forced or chose to go to war. So holy. So twisted. But a good way to reduce the number of the unemployed. Yes we remember them. They were sacrificed so we could have the life we now have. But you should think deep about what ANZAC day means. It means that we will send our young, women and men, off to die on foreign soil. To kill and torture others. For such a good cause. What good cause? Read the Rupert controlled press or watch the Rupert controlled TV. They will tell you why they must torture helpless people. Killing the innocent civilians is just a collateral part of a glorious activity: defending our way of life so that we can do the same again and again and again. These young men were not slaughtered by Turkish bullets in vain. They were just the first. And they died so that we can sell the glory to every other generation. They must be proud of all those they saved from that rapist German scum! Proud. What did no one mention Vietnam? We put men into that beautiful country and got them to use carcinogenic agents on the population. Chemical warfare. To save the population. To save us.

Please, save us from this shame! Remember the butchery! But don't use it to send others. Why send the young? Because they do not know any better. Because they will obey orders to kill and torture without question. The gullible young. I have every sympathy for the walking dead who return from war. But let us stop waste. I favour killing when it is necessary. Kill quickly but kill at all costs. Just do not waste lives for the sake of armament manufacturers profits. I believe in defence. Not in fighting other folks' wars for them. It cloaks their needs in the flag of the UN. 

For the sake of our young people. The old have had their day.....

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
© 2005-2011, Webdiary Pty Ltd
Disclaimer: This site is home to many debates, and the views expressed on this site are not necessarily those of the site editors.
Contributors submit comments on their own responsibility: if you believe that a comment is incorrect or offensive in any way,
please submit a comment to that effect and we will make corrections or deletions as necessary.
Margo Kingston Photo © Elaine Campaner

Recent Comments

David Roffey: {whimper} in Not with a bang ... 12 weeks 6 days ago
Jenny Hume: So long mate in Not with a bang ... 12 weeks 6 days ago
Fiona Reynolds: Reds (under beds?) in Not with a bang ... 13 weeks 1 day ago
Justin Obodie: Why not, with a bang? in Not with a bang ... 13 weeks 1 day ago
Fiona Reynolds: Dear Albatross in Not with a bang ... 13 weeks 1 day ago
Michael Talbot-Wilson: Good luck in Not with a bang ... 13 weeks 1 day ago
Fiona Reynolds: Goodnight and good luck in Not with a bang ... 13 weeks 3 days ago
Margo Kingston: bye, babe in Not with a bang ... 13 weeks 6 days ago