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Question time or a time to questionSoon after Latham's election as Labor leader long time Webdiarist and Sydney artist Robert Bosler wrote An artist's blueprint for a Latham win and A Webdiarist's speech for a Mark Latham address to the nation. In The power of Latham's ghost, Robert wrote of Latham "never to be Prime Minister, we know that now. Yet he was about creating a new Prime Ministership...". Can it happen? Or will John Howard's politics sustain itself through the questioning times ahead. Question time or a time to questionby Robert Bosler Fascinating time we live in just now. When many are publicly declaring answers to why our nation is in its current state, and a great many more privately doing the same, there seems also an undercurrent of perhaps the vast majority who though not necessarily voicing it are nevertheless also inclined to question. Who would really know, of course. Yet for Australia to be thrust into these times of widespread talk of fear and serious threat it is fair to assume there are some serious questions on the national mind. Events in America are equally fascinating. And we'd do well perhaps to reflect on matters there as a possible precursor to events happening here. After all, we have often as a nation found ourselves following an American trend. How America came to be the united constitutional states they are is such a convoluted story it takes the briefest visit to even just two or three of those states to see and feel the tremendous difference between those states, and to find its convoluted historical story living still. It is as though the country doesn't yet know itself: preoccupied must it be in that task of coming to know who they are as a nation when it is so varied in culture and style, it is entirely understandable America is regarded elsewhere in the world as being self-interested and inward looking. But one thing certainly and swiftly united America recently and that was its widely felt anger after the attacks on the twin towers. That anger has died down, weakened by the growing weight of George W. Bush's immediate response to those attacks - once so widely applauded there - and dying in step with the steady continuance of the dying of her sons and daughters in Iraq. No longer is America the angry nation it was; rather, it appears to be undergoing some deep reflection and questioning of its own. The talk now is whether the Presidency of George W. Bush can rise above the looming publicly-placed mantle where it will be seen as a lame duck, itself. This gives rise to so many questions. Will America grow to reject George W. Bush outright? And who would be sought to take his place in the public heart and mind? And are those two questions linked as to provide influence on each of their answers? If there is no appealing alternative, will another form of internal anger develop? Can Bush recover? Will there be a terrorist situation in America which once again catalyses public opinion and back it goes on that united anger treadmill? If it were to happen, would American people respond differently the next time around? But talk of terrorist attacks upon America seems to have itself altered. Now, the threat is seen in growing quarters not so much as the threat being immediate, but as the threat whose seeds have been planted or spawned to return in spades for a generation to come. It's all very, very ugly and must be disheartening if not crippling for many of her people. The sound of pain from mothers, especially, is reaching us here regularly, in the telling of it. Would it be fair to say, as has been said already, that for the Presidency of George W. Bush to be turned around, in public sentiment, the mess in Iraq must be turned around? If Iraq, then, does not change quickly to become the sunny democracy promised by Bush perhaps the trend of disintegration of Bush's support will continue? We'll know, here, whichever way it goes. Where does that leave our own John Howard? Will he be chomping at the bit to remain in the Australian public mind as the great friend of George W. Bush? And if the trend continues, of American trends arriving on our shores and growing here, will we see the same disintegration of support for John Howard, as Bush has undergone? Is that fate awaiting our Prime Minister? Is it all slowly and inexorably caving in for both men, one first, the other to follow? These are valid questions. Is there, already, a subliminal loss of support for John Howard happening, yet to show itself, as our notorious national way of expressing political interest occurs only at the time of an election? Is John Howard operating under the illusion that his standing in the community, to make these latest massive changes to our country, is like it was? Could it be the politics of it all is catching up with him, though has not yet been expressed by the slowly moving preoccupied mainstream? Or will he triumph in the politics of it once again? Will he distance himself from the American trend, as he has distanced himself from other political threat? Could he distance himself, politically, from a possible American rejection of Bush and yet maintain strong political ties with America? And not be seen as duplicitous? Will he be around long enough for us to know? Australia has very much less of that convoluted history of America. In comparison with America, our federation and states and territories have grown in quite a direct manner. We have pretty much catapulted into constitutional existence. There is very little difference in culture and style between our states and territories. We are, overall, much more aligned as one. Are we stronger or weaker on account of these things? Europeans arrived, threw off the shackles, got down to business, and got to living it up. Settled Australians quickly got to know freedom. And to love it, and live it. Beach sand in the bed linen seemed about as bad as it got, in terms of our national psyche. Written into our development as a nation, of course, are deep and powerful achievements. These achievements quickly grew to lead the world, in many challenging fields of endeavour. No one would decry those, nor the unseen achievements our folk make each day, in having grown into a largely tolerant and good willed nation. And within some of our people there has been deep suffering, as well. These are mentioned by way of acknowledgement here, lest they be forgotten, though this piece is not about that: discourse on modern Australia will necessarily include the growing cause for suffering. But this article is to say, overall and in comparison with so many other developed nations along the way, we've had it pretty easy. "You guys are so laid back," we'd be told, by visitors, continually. Indeed, we love our freedom, and we cherish it, and we have it written into our psyche that, as Settled Australians, we are free. We are threatened now by events of the modern developed world, and yet we are so very different in being young, in that modern world, and so very different in our unique embodiment and disposition to its complete opposite - being free. Has our direct route to constitutional and sentimental freedom created a very different situation, then, in this modern, developed world of fear? Are we the people for whom fear sits easily, comfortably, naturally? Are we built nationally to so readily accept fear? Will we bow down to it? Will we rise in anger? Or will we slowly and surely come to reject it, not wanting either anger or fear? Will the contrary thing happen? Will we slowly and surely come to live with fear? Will we come to take that new way of life on, naturally, as we did our freedom? What has been the more powerful determinant in our making? Has our sense of freedom been stronger, so we'll end up rejecting the fearful way of life, and seek, creatively and with the good humour of larrikin tradition, to throw off the shackles and find our freedom once again? Perhaps emerge as a world leader in that field? Or has it been that because we've had it easy, we'll buckle to the forces of fear, quickly and hopelessly, from lack of strength and experience in living daily with it? It was a bevy of men who've brought the developed world to its current state, thrown up and flashed around latterly by the bells and whistles of a loud and hungry media. And there are many more questions than just these, right now, for which we'll find the answers. No doubt time - and mothers - will do the telling.
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re: Question time or a time to question
Jay, what do you do with your other hand while you sit there stroking your....ego? Sorry, it must be using the phone to get your orders from above. Silly question.. Oh and you forgot to have a go at my spelligng mistake, let alone the furphies I threw at you. Swallowed whole obviously. There there there.
When you actually have something reasonable to say I'll play with you Jay. I've seen no evidence of that though, so I guess I won't be hearing from you. When will everyone simply start replying to our lovelyJay in the same manner as he does to you?
Gobbledegook achtoo and herumph to him. He will understand that.
re: Question time or a time to question
A good thing little Johnny Howard, Bush and Blair have done so much travelling as pollies, there has been some legal opinion that a few years down the line if they ended up in country that isn't a brown nose to the US they could find himself in the same situation as Pinochet. I live in hope :)
Hey Jay, you listen instead to a certain country that cosied up to Saddam in the past - Rummy got on well didn't he - or helped topple a democratically elected government in South America.
Or the same one that has recently deserted the Hmong people who are suffering atrocities in Laos even though they were allies in a recent war.
You are so concerned about democracy and human rights what about what is happening in West Papua right on our doorstep?
If any of the pro-war supporters had any consistency they would be supporting we do something about it.
But sorry, we have to look out for number one and keep the Indonesians happy so they will help us fight this war on terrorism which suspiciously looks like a con by sections of the Indonesian military anyway. Didn't see Dateline?
BTW, yes its a good thing that Iraq now has democracy, pity we had to bomb the crap out of them and leave the country a mess to do it.
Look forward to the elections, especially when many of those elected will turn to Iran and tell the US and its oil men to get screwed.
re: Question time or a time to question
Philip Carmody, I don't want to sound like I'm trolling, but doesn't that amount to abuse, or at least an attack on character?
Number 5 of the Webdiarist Obligations: "Robust debate is great, but don't indulge in personal attacks on other contributors."
Now let us see your original post:
"That's rich. I have watched you, on thread after thread, vehemently rip into other commentators, while putting your "prejudices" (eg, your HATRED of the Right) above the "facts" (eg, a limited insurgency is not a civil war, Bush was re-elected, Howard is a Prime Minister whose authority is unmatched and the that there will soon be ANOTHER free and fair election in Iraq). The only conclusion I can come to is that you don't like what you see so you choose to ignore the FACTS. Resorting to slogans "war criminal", "facist", "liar" does not solve anything. It does not provide answers for the contemporary problems Australia faces today."
So how does that look? You will note that there was no substantiation to anything you alleged. Some assertions you made have been challenged, questioned and even proven with evidence presented here. Something you should have known if you had indeed been watching.
Where was your evidence? Non-existent.
As I said, if you want to play you will have to do better. Perhaps you could start by presenting evidence to back one of your assertions - how about posting previous comments I have made about whether there is or is not a civil war in Iraq?
I await your reasoned and substantiated response.
re: Question time or a time to question
Jay White: "I guess you will be sending your piece of legal advice off to the Supreme Court and High Courts then? Oh sorry I forgot you already have Howard and Bush convicted. Bob Wall the seeker of Court Justice indeed."
You refuse to understand what has been written. I have stated on a number of occasions that the UN is the arbiter in determining whether the invasion of Iraq was legal or illegal. I have provided evidence for the status of the UN, including how it stands in the Constitution of the United States.
Your continued reference to courts is irrelevant to that matter. International courts will become relevant when, hopefully, the leaders of the COW are called to face justice as individuals for their actions. Also, you have claimed a supremacy from domestic courts - perhaps you should think about jurisdictional matters.
As to your opinions of the standing of the UN and various wars, as I said previously, they do not matter. The fundamental facts are that the UN is the repository and arbiter of international law and regardless of your particular view of the morality of the invasion of Iraq, it was illegal.
Your continued support for governments that perpetrated a war of aggression and continued illegal actions such as breaches of the Geneva Conventions and various atrocities such as occurred at Fallujah, make you a fellow-traveller of the perpetrators.
Perhaps you should try rereading such evidence as UN Charter, Article VI of the US Constitution and the extracts of the ANZUS Treaty I provided. Try to understand them.
If you have something further to say then provide evidence.
re: Question time or a time to question
Jay White, first, you still haven’t explained what the Berlin Wall has to do with Iraq.
Secondly, I can assure you that democracy is something I very much believe in. But I’m talking about real democracy; the kind of democracy where a substantial number of people get to make decisions based on truthful and honest facts being presented to them from a completely open government. I’m not talking about the kind of pseudo-democracy model that you supported whereby Howard gets to tell lots of lies thus inducing fear into the population so that he can maintain power in order to introduce laws that limit the freedom of speech; the very essence of democracy. I’m not talking about the kind of democracy that you support whereby it allows itself not to exist anymore. I’m not talking about the narrow-banded kind of ‘democracy’ that seems to be your preferred model where we get to vote for this fascist or that fascist.
Nor am I talking about the kind of ‘democracy’ that’s being foisted on to the Iraqi people where they get to choose between this murdering thug and that convicted criminal, fraudster and liar, sponsored by an occupying and plundering force that continues to murder innocent civilians.
The world has already tried your preferred government style, Jay White. Hitler couldn’t get it to work; nor could Mussolini or Stalin or Franco or Pinochet or the Greek Generals. What makes you think Howard can make it work here? Or the Americans in Iraq? They didn’t have any success in Vietnam!
re: Question time or a time to question
One final question to all the international legal eagels amongst us. Regarding the eventual arrest of George W Bush and his breaking of the sacred UN laws.
Why has the precedent of an arrest not already been set on a travelling ex-President? I am of course referring to none other than Bill clinton.
Was the attack on Serbia a sanctioned UN exercise? If not than acccording to Bob Wall, Bill should already be in the slammer in some out of the way third nation, should he not?
Or have I missed the international law rule that states crimes against Presidents should depend on politics? Back to legal school boys and girls.
re: Question time or a time to question
Das Rivell thanks for the compliments. I persist because it would be wrong of me to allow ignorance to win out.
Bob Wall: "Your continued reference to courts is irrelevant to that matter. International courts will become relevant when, hopefully, the leaders of the COW are called to face justice as individuals for their actions. Also, you have claimed a supremacy from domestic courts - perhaps you should think about jurisdictional matters."
America has not ratified such an agreement. I suggest you do more reading about the International Criminal Court before preaching to others how it works.
Your continued quoting of the American Constitution in relation to this matter is complete nonsense. Firstly would you kindly show me the agreement entered into to 1. Defer all matters relating to US law to the UN? 2. The agreement signed not to go to war with Iraq?
Wishing to think that the UN has a higher authority in the USA than both the President, Congress and the Supreme Court is not only wrong but also ignorant and delusional. Would you also care to show the article in the Australian Constitution were it states the UN has a higher authority than the Australian Government?
The Iraq war was justified due to Iraq refusing to comply fully with the UN resolutions, more specifically the last resolution. Learn your subject before shooting your mouth off.
re: Question time or a time to question
Jay White, in my previous post I wrote:
"Perhaps you should try rereading such evidence as UN Charter, Article VI of the US Constitution and the extracts of the ANZUS Treaty I provided. Try to understand them.
If you have something further to say then provide evidence."
You have failed to either read or if you did, understand and also to provide evidence for your substantiations.
Try again and if you have something substantial and reasoned to say then do so or stop wasting time.
re: Question time or a time to question
Now, Jay White, let me give you a few tips about propaganda and argument. To the latter: you never seem to answer direct questions or reply directly to criticism. Instead you change the subject or re-interpret what has been asked or the comment made in order to give it some nuance it never had before. That, quite simply is disingenuous and intellectually dishonest (or reveals a lack of understanding - there you go - even I can be charitable).
"Malcolm B Duncan: 'what is your military record by the way - what Unit did you serve in and when?'
That is none of your business. It is also not in any way relevant to this discussion. Unless of course you believe a person must have a military record to hold an opinion on such matters as foreign policy.
And to think you accuse me of 'becoming increasingly detached from reality'".
Jay, I think it is relevant otherwise I would not have asked. As to it being none of my business, I should have thought it would be part of the public record and, if you had one, like most of us who do you would be proud of it. Of course, it may be that you have a record as a consciencious objector or were dishonourably discharged; but what the heck, if that were the case, it would place you in such select company I imagine you would be trumpeting it from the treetops.
No-one needs direct experience to hold an opinion on anything. Direct experience is a question of weight. Your opinion might have more influence or be more respectable if you had some experience. Let us for the moment assume, in the absence of any reasonable contradiction that one might have reasonably expected, that you have no experience. That accords with the sorts of comment you are wont to make.
Now to propaganda, the rule laddie is: tell the BIG lie, tell it often enough and most people will believe you.
"The Iraq war was justified due to Iraq refusing to comply fully with the UN resolutions, more specifically the last resolution. Learn your subject before shooting your mouth off."
Now, laddie, this breaches the rule: this is a LITTLE lie. No-one will believe it no matter how many times you tell it (I add in passing that is is almost directly contrary to your statement earlier that the war was sanctioned by UN resolutions being broken - "Bob Wall, the Iraq war was a legal one. I don't know where you get the idea that it was not. UN resolutions were continually broken therefore making action legal: 15/11/2005 5:30:33 PM") because if that were justification for invasion there would hardly be a country on earth not liable to invasion on that basis by the rest (including most of Africa, South America and Israel not to mention the Rebel North American Colonies who have been in a constant state of rebellion since the 1770s). Your prior assertion was also demonstrably false. I assume that is why you twisted it into the later version: "legal" transmogrifies into "justified". Killing dimwits may be justified but it is hardly legal. Burning books is not illegal but it is certainly unjustified.
It's a pity the Nazis didn't have the benefit of your polemic skills - WWII might not have happened (at least not the way it panned out).
In short, what you say is twaddle. While I am inclined to think you probably believe it yourself because I have detected no higher order literary skill or capacity for irony in what you say, it is not suseptible of belief by any rational person. It is indeed detached from reality.
re: Question time or a time to question
Hamish ed: "The knives have certainly been out in general. Put them away please everyone."
Eating people may, as Malcolm Bradbury says, be wrong but there's nothing wrong with killing them. As someone who thought until about the age of three that his name was "That Stupid Kid", public abuse and invective have practically no effect on me. If someone is debating like a sub-human, that should be a legitimate point. As an expert in the field, I hark back with fondness to Billy Snedden ("We didn't lose; we just didn't win")who improved my debating scores immeasurably throughout 1974 (except when Nick Greiner or Giles Rowling were adjudicating).
Lampooning people as well as arguments is not only fun but it can be an effective intellectual tool and humour is one of the most devastating rhetorical tools in the speaker's armoury. Let 'er rip says I, Hamish.
Besides, slipping back into legislative interprative mode, the rule is not absolute - it is always subject to Margo's final decision. That's what I love about democracy and rules - they should be applied as sparingly as humanly possible unless it is to one's personal advantage.
Margo: I don't apply the rules to my advantage, Malcolm - to the contrary - although I do wonder why sometimes. Masochism, perhaps? Bending over backwards to be fair seems to encourage my critics to belt my backside harder. The 'no abuse' guidelines are there so more people feel safe to contribute without having their heads blown off and so we can have a conversation rather than a slanging match. Before my first comments editor Jack Robertson clamped down on personal abuse, my preference towards free speech and self regulation drove many people away from Webdiary after comments replaced emails in September last year. I'm pretty comfortable with the balance now. After all, there are countless sites where people can blow away contrary views with vitriol and hate speech. I keep hoping civil discourse might lead to an acceptance of some common ground, somewhere, sometime, some way.
re: Question time or a time to question
Bob Wall, Article VI: "This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding".
Which treaty made defers the right of the USA to declare war on another nation to the UN?
"any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding".
Now read the next piece carefully Bob, Article III, Section 2:
"The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution, the laws of the United States, and treaties made, or which shall be made, under their authority;--to all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls;--to all cases of admiralty and maritime jurisdiction;--to controversies to which the United States shall be a party;--to controversies between two or more states;--between a state and citizens of another state;--between citizens of different states;--between citizens of the same state claiming lands under grants of different states, and between a state, or the citizens thereof, and foreign states, citizens or subjects.
"In all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, and those in which a state shall be party, the Supreme Court shall have original jurisdiction. In all the other cases before mentioned, the Supreme Court shall have appellate jurisdiction, both as to law and fact, with such exceptions, and under such regulations as the Congress shall make.
"The trial of all crimes, except in cases of impeachment, shall be by jury; and such trial shall be held in the state where the said crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any state, the trial shall be at such place or places as the Congress may by law have directed."
So it is obvious that Congress must make a law to be directed against Bush and his alledged criminal conduct that must be faced before the AMERICAN SUPREME COURT. This may be difficult however considering Congress passed a joint resolution to authorise war in Iraq.
Again maybe you should reconsider your earlier assumptions. I don't think President Bush will be being prosecuted anytime in his lifetime for going to war with Iraq.
re: Question time or a time to question
Malcolm B Duncan: "Jay, I think it is relevant otherwise I would not have asked ... As to it being none of my business, I should have thought it would be part of the public record and, if you had one, like most of us who do you would be proud of it. Of course, it may be that you have a record as a conscientious objector or were dishonourably discharged; but what the heck, if that were the case, it would place you in such select company I imagine you would be trumpeting it from the treetops".
Well I dont think such details are relevent nor is this forum the place to discuss them. Would you please explain to me why you do?
Since you have placed your military record into the public domain I would be interested to know which theatre of operations you served in? "Your opinion might have more influence or be more respectable if you had some experience". No doubt your experiences in these operations would lead much more "weight" to your opinions about Iraq? I hope you only have the middle initial in common with Jubilation T Cornpone.
"In short, what you say is twaddle. While I am inclined to think you probably believe it yourself because I have detected no higher order literary skill or capacity for irony in what you say, it is not susceptible of belief by any rational person. It is indeed detached from reality".
Now would you kindly give us all your obvious expertise in American law and explain how after acting on authorisation passed by the United States Congress George Bush is guilty of declaring an illegal war?
Would you also like to give us all your international law expertise and explain why the UN is still yet to have President Clinton indicted?
It seems to me reading many of your comments regarding my opinions you are the person who needs the aid of "propaganda" and I would add to that self-promotion shouting from the "treetops" so to speak and diversion tactics "laddie".
re: Question time or a time to question
Jay white reckons, “…I don't think President Bush will be being prosecuted anytime in his lifetime for going to war with Iraq.” That’s providing, of course, that Bush doesn’t step outside of the US and into a country where he can be arrested and charged after his Presidency has ended. He’ll need to be careful. As will Howard and the other war criminals that invaded, plundered and murdered in Iraq using chemical weapons against a civilian population.
re: Question time or a time to question
Jay White, congratulations, you have actually done some research. Pity you still have problems with the jurisdictional issue. Hint: international law - and this focus is a diversion from the key point of the UN's view of the illegality of the invasion of Iraq.
A reminder - a few years ago Henry Kissinger was in England and several countries asked the UK government to extradite him so that he could be tried for crimes committed while he was a member of the US government. No mention of Congress needing to pass anything there. And the ICC is not the only international court. Think on this in the case of Bush no longer being president and he decides on a private visit to Europe, for example.
In a previous post you went off into matters relating to Serbia - a diversion as the subject we are discussing is Iraq. Your references to resolutions being broken has been dealt with in grand style by Malcolm and I would add that it is also a matter for the UN to decide - in the case in question, the Security Council. The COW walked away from that process. Your counter arguments have been dispelled by the verdict of the UN itself - a point you have not been able to counter. Which explains the diversions and less than objective approach to the debate.
Your resort to such diversions and evasions and failure to understand or accept the evidence presented to you merely reinforces the paucity of the argument.
Margo, JR had much to teach. We try, although it is very trying at times. I agree with your approach and the need for ethics and guidelines, obviously. Any lessening and WD would become just another blog. As you have said, it is more than that. So we battle on even when we really want to say some things to some people...
re: Question time or a time to question
I wasn't having a go at you Margo, I was referring to MY personal advantage.
Yours aye,
re: Question time or a time to question
"This may be difficult however considering Congress passed a joint resolution to authorise war in Iraq."
Not 100% certain on this Jay, but I think you may find that Congress - in an abrogation of its duty - agreed to hand the power to declare war to the president in the case of Iraq. In other words, the decision you make without making the decision: "Ahh...we don't know - here, you decide."
So in the end it may have been a decision of the excecutive.
re: Question time or a time to question
Malcolm B Duncan, the final resolution passed was UN resolution 1441.
It offered Iraq one final change to - and I quote from wikipedia - "a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations" (as had been set out by resolutions Resolution 660, Resolution 661, Resolution 678, Resolution 686, Resolution 687, Resolution 688, Resolution 707, Resolution 715, Resolution 986, and Resolution 1284), notably to provide "an accurate full, final, and complete disclosure, as required by Resolution 687 (1991).
Resolution 1441 states "serious consequences" if these are not met. Which of course they were not in the time frame allowed.
I think even the greatest legal minds will have trouble proving what "serious consequences" don't mean. Case closed.
re: Question time or a time to question
Bob Wall: "A reminder - a few years ago Henry Kissinger was in England and several countries asked the UK government to extradite him so that he could be tried for crimes committed while he was a member of the US government".
Coulda, woulda and maybe shoulda but didn't. I have just destroyed your baseless dribble regarding Americans being beholden to the UN through their Constitution. Don't want to write about that anymore?
Clinton is very relevant to the situation because he has authorised exactly the same thing as Bush. Bob it is called a precedent and it is yet to be set.
Your faith in the UN is noble yet misguided. Remember the USA has also veto power which is quiet legal. They are hardly likely to have one of their own Presidents be indicted on a alleged crime (war with Iraq) that their own Congress authorised.
Any attempt to arrest President Bush who more than likely would be travelling with diplomatic immunity would be regarded as kidnap and perhaps an act of war.
In the USA the UN is not a higher authority than the President, Congress or Supreme Court.
re: Question time or a time to question
Hit a nerve did I Jay White? What a pity, I was aiming for a brain cell. Let's take them one by one.
"Well I don't think such details are relevant nor is this forum the place to discuss them. Would you please explain to me why you do?"
No.
"Since you have placed your military record into the public domain I would be interested to know which theatre of operations you served in?"
Well, if you call Britain a "theatre of operations", that's one. Otherwise on exercise in Australia in a number of areas and on a number of courses. Psychological research both in the office and in the field. My country was not engaged in any armed conflict during my service career, although I was a little concerned we might be after the assassination of Sadat. Fortunately, then, we had more level heads at the top than we seem to have now. Do you suggest it was my fault we were not pursuing an aggressive intrusive foreign policy backed by armed incursion?
"Your opinion might have more influence or be more respectable if you had some experience". No doubt your experiences in these operations would lead much more "weight" to your opinions about Iraq?"
Any fool with the slightest knowledge of minor infantry tactics would understand the operational and logistic problems of Iraq - had Storming Norman pressed home (an operaion that was sanctioned by the UN) in the Gulf War, we would not be in this mess now. The terrain is, under present conditions with an armed guerilla opposition as unwinnable as Vietnam but for different reasons. Desert warfare is a bugger at the best of times - ask Rommel.
"I hope you only have the middle initial in common with Jubilation T Cornpone."
I do not pretend to understand this gratuitous insult.
More importantly, in general answer to your ill-considered, rambling, sand-shifting diatribes, you attribute to me the opinions of others that I have not myself expressed. I don't really give a toss whether the war is, in your terms "legal" or "illegal". My country, for the first time in its history is an unprovoked aggressor. Both as a citizen and a soldier, I find that abhorrent.
As for you grasp of the foreign policy of the Rebel North American Colonies, it defies belief. This is a group that has successively: revolted against its King and Parliament; waged war on His Majestey's Canadian possessions; threatened the Spanish and the French, declared war on its lawful sovereign and Parliament again (1812), invaded Mexico, divided itself by waging civil war (killing more combatants than died in WWI), invaded heaven knows how many neighbouring countries in its region throughout the 20 th Century, invaded Vietnam on a pretext, conducted covert and completely illegal operations on foreign soil and has now invaded a sovereign country half way around the world. And you justify all that by saying its President and Congress decided to do it. So they might have but they do not exist as a sovereign nation in my view. They are a group of colonies in revolt and the sooner someone does a Falklands on them the better.
"Now would you kindly give us all your obvious expertise in American law and explain how after acting on authorisation passed by the United States Congress George Bush is guilty of declaring an illegal war?"
See Above. There is no such thing as "American" law. No law pased since the "revolution" has any validity.
"Would you also like to give us all your international law expertise and explain why the UN is still yet to have President Clinton indicted?"
I neither know nor care - he is an alien, indict him as you will. Would you point to the post where I ever mentioned him? This is another example of your argument by misdirection. Attack someone for something he didn't say about an issue he never raised and attribute the comments of others to him in an alogical mish-mash of invective. If you could do it with the sligtest aplomb, I might even have a little respect for you as a debater but it is tranparently false every time you do it. If I were adjudicating you (and as Australia's sometime best national adjudicator I have done my fair share - I have a reputation for never having awarded a debate incorrectly at State or National level) it would be 0 for method, 0 for matter and we might give you 1/40 for manner (just to soften the blow).
"Resolution 1441 states "serious consequences" if these are not met. Which of course they were not in the time frame allowed. I think even the greatest legal minds will have trouble proving what "serious consequences" don't mean."
Please expalin how "serious consequences" amount to a sanction for launching a war. I seem to remember some of the former "serious consequences" were trade sanctions. I shall leave aside the logical difficulty in proving a negative.
"Case closed."
Case still wide open, I'm afraid.
Let's face it, Jay White, you just can't mix it. As I said once to one unfortunate who had been dragged into a school debate against his will and forced to do it embarrassingly for everyone by his "teacher" just to make up the numbers, "Son, are you any good at football?"
Cruel but fair.
re: Question time or a time to question
Malcolm B. Duncan: "Hit a nerve did I Jay White? What a pity, I was aiming for a brain cell. Let's take them one by one".
A raw nerve, you wish, you are far from that good. I just find it interesting to hear the war stories of people who feel it necessary to parade their own in public as an attempt to belittle others. Pity you have none.
"More importantly, in general answer to your ill-considered, rambling, sand-shifting diatribes, you attribute to me the opinions of others that I have not myself expressed. I don't really give a toss whether the war is, in your terms "legal" or "illegal". My country, for the first time in its history is an unprovoked aggressor. Both as a citizen and a soldier, I find that abhorrent."
Well say what you mean son. Don't buy into arguments that you do not "give a toss about". On top of that don't try and tell people something that you either know is not correct or you simply dont know.
"See Above. There is no such thing as "American" law. No law pased since the "revolution" has any validity."
King George may have said the exact same thing whilst part of his empire vanished. More than likely a man in a gown and wig agreed with him.
"If I were adjudicating you (and as Australia's sometime best national adjudicator I have done my fair share - I have a reputation for never having awarded a debate incorrectly at State or National level) it would be 0 for method, 0 for matter and we might give you 1/40 for manner (just to soften the blow)."
More shouting from the "treetops". Are you going to demand certificates of my debating credentials now?
"Please expalin how "serious consequences" amount to a sanction for launching a war. I seem to remember some of the former "serious consequences" were trade sanctions. I shall leave aside the logical difficulty in proving a negative."
Well that is exactly the "difficulty" that will have to be proven if a conviction for George Bush declaring an illegal war is to be arrived at.
"Case still wide open, I'm afraid."
Not if you cannot prove the previous question it is not.
"Let's face it, Jay White, you just can't mix it. As I said once to one unfortunate who had been dragged into a school debate against his will and forced to do it embarrassingly for everyone by his "teacher" just to make up the numbers, "Son, are you any good at football?"
More insults and more diversion tactics if only average. Should we be debating my football credentials now?
re: Question time or a time to question
Bob Wall, you obviously do not get it? The UN charter has nothing to do with the American Constitution. I have already shown you why this is the case. Also Congress is not going to indict a President for something they themselves have passed.
As for your other theory Resolution 1441 states "serious consequences". Now I don't care what you want it to say or what you would like it to say that is what it says. It will have to be proven that this term does not mean war for any prosecution to be successful.
If you truly believe that the USA - the largest donor to your beloved UN - is seriously going to sit by and allow one of their Presidents to be prosecuted for something their own Congress passed you live in fairyland.
ed Hamish: once again Jay and Bob, neither of you are presenting anything new to the jury. Call this one quits please.
re: Question time or a time to question
Malcolm B, I am interested that you might share your views regarding the Australian response to homeland terrorism fear.
Perhaps I'm asking more that you share your gut feeling on it. The word constitution carries more than one meaning, and yet it may be argued that those meanings are linked. We have a constitution as a legal document, and we have a constitution as a form, in style or strength, of character.
As a constitutional lawyer, I am wondering if you've obtained over the years a gut feeling on the Australian character, in particular her response to this recent fear of homegrown terrorist threat.
I'm saying gut feeling because I'm hoping to distil the complexity of the question/answer into an essence, that there may be something particular you feel in terms of our national character, which distinguishes us from other national responses.
The short mention in the article of settled Australia having catapulted into constitutional existence, and, when there, having pretty much an overall similarity in style and culture, raises the question of whether we are stronger or weaker for it.
I'd provide the (simplistic, agreed) analogous example of a bunch of sticks - so that the Australian constitution, as character, would have those sticks wound and bound pretty much in alignment, as compared with, say, the US, where its style and culture being so varied would have the sticks unaligned, fanlike. Crook example perhaps; I'd be delighted if you wish to challenge it and provide your views instead.
But if you will allow me that analogy, at least enough to throw up the question if it doesn't go so far as to work in answer, which bunch of sticks is the stronger? Are the sticks in alignment stronger for the alignment, being harder to bend or break? Or are the sticks spread fanlike the stronger, being able to be more variable and diverse in response?
It may all come to naught, but the question of Australia's unique style of character having a possibly unique response to homegrown terrorism fear is worth putting.
For instance, if as a nation we do react in time differently, notwithstanding (if we can) the natural individual generic response to fear, we may find ourselves moving into a very unique position on the world stage regarding the world issue of terrorism threat.
Your gut feeling on this would interest me. Were you to argue the case one way or another, of the Australian character response to homeland terrorism fear, born of its constitution, I'm guessing you'd have a distillation of feeling how it would be argued. It is that feeling, those overall impressions, the general gist, I think we'd find interesting just now.
Yours cheers.
re: Question time or a time to question
Jay, again you refuse to understand what is presented to you.
You ignore the point of Article VI of the US Constitution - 'supreme Law of the Land'. Whatever Article III contains it does not counter the central point. Therefore, in the first instance, the US legal system should try Bush for breaching the Constitution through breaking the terms of an international treaty. That is, in this case the UN Charter.
Which goes to your question, "Which treaty made defers the right of the USA to declare war on another nation to the UN?"
UN Charter:
Also recall the extracts from the ANZUS Treaty:
I apologise for having to repost some of these items but given:
"Coulda, woulda and maybe shoulda but didn't. I have just destroyed your baseless dribble regarding Americans being beholden to the UN through their Constitution. Don't want to write about that anymore?"
You seem to insist on these things being mentioned repeatedly although once should be enough for their meaning to be clear.
'Should be' being the operative expression.
You refer to the US veto power - which is in the Security Council and is an operational matter and does not affect the fundamental fact that the UN is the repository and arbiter of matters pertaining to international law.
"Coulda, woulda, but didn't."
The point, which you again refuse to see, is that several countries wished to try Kissinger under international law. That it did not happen is due to international politics in that the UK government failed to agree to extradition. That again has nothing to do with the substance of the point and all to do with the UK's perception of its national interests, ie, not wanting to endanger relations with the US being more important than justice. This is a major problem with the pursuit of justice under international law.
By "dribble" are you referring to the Constitution of the United States, The UN Charter and the ANZUS Treaty?
On Resolution 1441 - this has been gone over time and again for 3 years. No need to go over the detail again. The UN Secretariat does not agree with your views on the matter. Nor does the overwhelming weight of independent expert legal opinion. And, if you had not noticed, Iraq had complied the the most important requirement - it had disarmed in re WMD. The rest was for the UN to decide. When the decision seemed likely not to suit the warmongers they walked away from the process and launched a war of aggression.
To Malcolm's accurate assessment of your skills or rather, lack of them) you replied:
"Should we be debating my football credentials now?"
Funny, I recall you posting to me in the past that you do not come here for a debating contest.
Well, what do you come here for?
ed Hamish: Jay and Bob, you have both essentially repeated the same material now several times. Time to agree to disagree.
re: Question time or a time to question
Hamish, I am sorry but I cannot just let this ignorance go by without saying something. I would be interested to know which law school Bob studied at?
Ed Hamish: if you must...
Because he would understand that this statement - "You ignore the point of Article VI of the US Constitution - 'supreme Law of the Land'. Whatever Article III contains it does not counter the central point. Therefore, in the first instance, the US legal system should try Bush for breaching the Constitution through breaking the terms of an international treaty. That is, in this case the UN Charter".
That Bob is utter and complete nonsense. Article III is very relevant because it deals with Judicial Power. Hence relevant because I think you are talking about a crime that you wish to see punished by the American legal system due to the existence of Article VI.
Article VI deals with Federal and treaty making powers. I suggest you read Read v Covert and of the supremacy clause "There is nothing in this language which intimates that treaties and laws enacted pursuant to them do not have to comply with the provisions of the Constitution. Nor is there anything in the debates which accompanied the drafting and ratification of the Constitution which even suggests such a result." (354 U.S. 1 at 16)
Now Bob read Article I section VIII more specifically the part that deals with Congress and the provisions of war. Now Bob read war powers resolution 1973. The Congressional vote was House of Representatives 296 to 133, Senate 77 to 23 authorising use of force against Iraq.
Still think George W Bush should be tried by the US Justice system for an illegal "war"?
re: Question time or a time to question
Malcolm B Duncan: "Jay White, considering the informational content of your posts, I have reconsidered my marks and deducted the point for matter. You are only the second person in my adjudicatorial career to score a perfect zero out of 100. Congratulations".
Thanks I take that has a compliment coming from a person whose insults directed towards another move in conjunction with his own self-aggrandisement.
I wondered when your content would reach zip. That question has now been answered. I only ask that you do subject me now to a round of Greek philosophers along with Latin phrases and mottos.
ed Hamish: righto Malcolm and Jay, insult tennis over.
re: Question time or a time to question
Malcolm, thank you. Take your time. Do you see an article in it? With Margo's agreement, it would be a wonderful dialogue to engage in, should you wish to lead on.
Cheers aye.
re: Question time or a time to question
Hey Philip Carmody, what? A defender of the faith. In case you hadn't noticed Jay simply keeps repeating (cut and paste) from his few recorded thoughts. If you are out troll hunting, can I point please?
You see Philip, Jay has no interest in anything other than to irritate others who genuinely believe what they say. He is simply so bored he has to get his kicks somehow. So I will from time to time make a deep, meaningful comment for Jay. I've actually been thinking of honouring him in the best Aussie tradition, giving him a nickname. How about Nike? Let's see who can analyse that first? Good luck Jay.
If you feel abused by my comment to Jay then I apologise to you but you will notice Jay won't say anything as he would thereby reveal a soft spot. Get it mate? I'll play his stupid game if he wishes, but only with him as he's special.
re: Question time or a time to question
Jay White, considering the informational content of your posts, I have reconsidered my marks and deducted the point for matter. You are only the second person in my adjudicatorial career to score a perfect zero out of 100. Congratulations.
Robert Bosler, kind of you to ask. I shall give it my consideration but it may take a day or two: the Party now has its url and I have to do some work on the webpage. For anyone interested, the address is: www.taxationreformnsw.org, email: admin@taxationreformnsw.org or membership@taxationreformnsw.org.
re: Question time or a time to question
Ross Chippendale, you can think what ever you want about me. However do not accuse me of being a troll.
Certain claims in this thread have been put up as unquestioned facts. I have attempted to show not only do I not agree with them, I know they are simply wrong.
Firstly I am accused of not providing any proof of a situation that has not only not arisen it is also not legally possible for it to arise. Once I show this proof and the reasons for my opinion I am simply attacked and abused.
A tactic that so many on here constantly attribute to me. Philip Carmody may enjoy reading other opinions not in common with a mutual admiration society sounding board with the occasional piece of interesting debate mixed in a petrie dish of rude biased and unsubstantiated dross.
Only Philip Carmody could say whether this is the truth or not.
ed Hamish: this is for everyone. If people weren't insulting each other tonight I could have had the night off. Get a grip everyone and get back to content. If you've got no more to add to the argument, let it rest. Next time someone insults another Webdiarist, and it's not published, don't ask me why. I don't care who it is.
re: Question time or a time to question
The overt interpretation, Ross Chippendale, would appear to concern a certain exploitative clothing company. But if you are indulging in subtle irony, could you be referring to a minor Greek goddess? If so, do you mean the winged or wingless (Athenian) manifestation? (I'd go for the latter myself; given that she was proclaimed wingless in the hope that she would never leave Athens.)
re: Question time or a time to question
Jay White, what frustrates me in many debates here is that I see both sides being inflexible and dogmatic, I’ve posted on this subject before.
In principle toppling dictators and promoting democracy is fine, but how you go about is another matter. Good intentions can be sullied if the motives and execution are not up to scratch especially when you are dealing with other peoples lives.
Many in the right would actually advance the cause of democracy and freedom by being more critical and less defensive about your main protagonist the US and hold it to its own principles. Like the British before it playing power politics for short term national/economic interests and dressing it up in the language of moral crusades is a recipe for disaster.
If you believe in freedom, democracy, and the rule of law, you don’t resort to – or defend those that do resort to - the doctrine of necessity to have placed people in legal limbo, secret prisons, torture and desecrating human remains (or in the past topple democratically elected governments or finance/support right wing death squads).
Nor do you take away those civil liberties you are promoting to cover up past and present geopolitical foreign policy mistakes.
You don’t want to become like the worst in those you oppose. If a nation says they support what is ‘right/good’ but aren’t critical of their own sides actions historically you will find them committing the same atrocities in the name of patriotism and national interest that they condemn others for.
Many on the left should get over the WMDs and the legality of the war - leave that to others to deal with at a latter date - and support both Iraq and Afghanistan in their time of need. They can still do that and criticise the US at the same time. :)
Regarding the US & the UN, many from both the left and the right are under their own type of confirmation bias; as they may see faults in their own side, but are more critical of faults on the other side.
For the left the US isn’t the enemy, but its policies are making it so; and while the UN has flaws it still has many redeeming features. For the right the UN has apparent flaws, which calls into question its effectiveness and objectivity; and while the US does have flaws its positives still outweigh its negatives.
Both sides could be more critical of what their own side is doing and hold them to the values they espouse.
The UN does need reform and the US needs to have a good look at itself; not only what it is doing now, but the things it has done in the past. Often a multinational collaborative approach works best, but there are times when a unilateral approach is warranted. We should be doubly cautious about how and when we involve armed conflict as the solution to a problem when it deals with the lives of others.
Again I put to those from the right here, if you do support freedom, human rights, and democracy, then there is no better place than to agitate for it being applied to West Papua. Surely if we are prepared to go to Afghanistan, Iraq and East Timor then we cannot allow further atrocities to happen in our backyard.
Margo I would like permission to have a representative from the Free West Papua movement write a piece on what is going on there and why they deserve the same chance at freedom and democracy as was provided by Australia to East Timor.
re: Question time or a time to question
OK Hamish, but only out of respect for the operators of this excellent site.
Hamish: thanks, and yes, compliments help.
re: Question time or a time to question
Anne Brookes, huh? When did I say Webdiary would fail? When did I rubbish the idea of Webdiary? Was it me who changed the debate by bringing up the idea that George Bush is a war criminal on this thread for authorising military action in Iraq?
If the truth spoils the party that is not my problem.
ed Hamish: that was a right of reply. Anne, with respect, please don't continue this. As I've said before, if you really don't think someone's on the level, just don't engage with them.
re: Question time or a time to question
Anne, thanks for the report and the interesting conjecture. Have been enjoying your posts.
Have to dash now so will read the report more thoroughly later.
re: Question time or a time to question
Hamish, one of the objectives of psyops is to disrupt sites such as this.
This site (along with others) provides excellent content that we are just not getting from mainstream media.
When people have information they can make reasonable informed decisions. Despite Jay's comment a few days ago that Webdiary would fail, Jay and people like him are very worried about forums such as this.
You will note that he uses various tactics to shift the debate from the actual articles being commented on, and goad other participants into a general slanging match.
Part of the challenge in today's world for independent media sites is to devise tactics to counter such strategies.
For all his rubbishing of Webdiary and its participants he sure spends a lot of time here.
You can take heart from the fact that his constant presence here proves that the establishment see you as a threat because you can make a difference.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
re: Question time or a time to question
Simon Moffitt I do not have a problem with looking critically at the actions taken by the United States in Iraq. I also do not have a problem with looking critically at the mistakes it has made in the past. In fact their own Secretary of State has admitted to more than one taking place in the past.
I do have a problem with people who attempt to pass off unsubstansiated nonsense as fact. Simply for the reason they would like to believe it as fact.
I think if you read over the thread you will understand what I am writing.
re: Question time or a time to question
Jay White: "Should we be debating my football credentials now?"
Bob Wall: "Funny, I recall you posting to me in the past that you do not come here for a debating contest.
"Well, what do you come here for?"
Maybe Jay is fighting his 'War against Terror' in his own way. Not all US military aggression is on the battlefield.
Here is one US Major's report on the use of the internet for psyops, a bit of a read, but very illuminating.
re: Question time or a time to question
That was not an insult, it was a comment on argumentative content. In accordance with my earlier undertaking it was permissible. As I have said before, I don't give a tinker's cuss if people want to insult me. I can handle it but I will confine myself to argument. As far as insults go, I should have thought my earlier demolition of the argumentative technique employed by this webdiarist, while clearly permissible was far more insulting.
ed Hamish: just take it easy please (everyone). Also keep in mind that editing out abuse is not merely a concern for the recipient, it's a concern for the site, and readers in general. Most complaints in this regard come from third parties who are bored with squabling and are here to read your content. As someone who reads an enormous amount of this stuff, I empathise.
re: Question time or a time to question
Hey Fiona, I'm not bright enough for subtle irony. See I'm just another troll, I know I am. Let's not spoil Jay's day by solving the puzzle before he does. My best to you.
re: Question time or a time to question
Jay W so which do you think are unsubstantiated nonsense as fact?
So the Abu Ghraib abuse is a myth?
The US admin trying to exempt the CIA from torture prohibitions is myth?
The recent desicration of those two Taliban soldiers was a myth?
Guantanamo Bay and legal limbo of Hicks is a myth?
The past and present support of authoritarian regimes by the US is a myth?
The support and financing of South American right wing ‘terrorist' deaths squads by the US, backed up by the World Court is a myth? The world court what would they know?
The well documented - their own archives - involvement by the CIA in the overthrow of a democratically elected government in Chile is a myth?
The black prisons may be unsubstantiated at the moment but given the form of the above it fits quite well the modus operandi of the US.
Jay, don't expect anyone to give ground on the left while you are in denial.
BTW still no support for the West Papuans? They have oil maybe if we tell the US that they may get interested and then Little Johnny will latch on like a dog to a bone.
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Hey Jay, How about a truce mate? It sickens me to resort to slags etc but my temper doesn't care about that. You obviously have much to say and it should be able to be said here without rage against you or anyone who writes.
You are also not stupid and must be sick of the abuse both towards you and what you dish out. Any chance? What a truce would mean is that you, me and everyone else puts a lid on the slagging and try instead to actually debate issues. The editors could simply not publish any abuse if we all are trying not to sink to that level. And accept that we, the writers, have infringed on an agreed standard of behaviour.
As it happens I think your views are quite necessary in a site such as this. Otherwise it would simply be adulation of people and ideas that do not deserve such. I'd much prefer to see an even balance between all parts of Australian society here and I think everyone else would too.
Up to you Jay, I'll keep my side of the deal, even if it's only between you and I.
re: Question time or a time to question
Simon Moffitt interesting questions although you are the first to bring them up. I will give you my opinion on each of them.
"So the Abu Ghraib abuse is a myth?
No it is a proven fact. I am also thankful to see the people involved facing American justice.
"The recent desecration of those two Taliban soldiers was a myth?
I would not use the word desecration. Even the SBS journalist reporting the incident saw nothing wrong with the actions. I think you will find more to this case than you believe.
"Guantanamo Bay and legal limbo of Hicks is a myth?
No it is not a myth it is a fact. I am also surprised the American Supreme Court has not ruled against this prison. However up until now they have not so therefore no law has been broken.
"The past and present support of authoritarian regimes by the US is a myth?
No this is not a myth this also is a fact. The USA in the past has made more than one wrong and self centered decision to support such regimes throughout its history. Regarding the Middle East its own Secretary of State has admitted as much.
I could add a few other regions to that list. I would never claim the USA has been or is perfect.
"The support and financing of South American right wing ‘terrorist' deaths squads by the US, backed up by the World Court is a myth? The world court what would they know?
The USA has given aid to right wing Governments in South America. Who these Governments choose to support with this money is their decision. If it found itself into the hands of "death squads" the leaders of these Governments should face a Court of law. How is the USA answerable to such things?
"The well documented - their own archives - involvement by the CIA in the overthrow of a democratically elected government in Chile is a myth?
Yes.
re: Question time or a time to question
Ah yes, Anne Brookes, psyops (that little box in the corner of the organisational diagramme that no-one would tell us much about - it just meant writing leaflets to drop on the Viet Cong and interrogating the odd prisoner actually).
Have you read Men Who Stare At Goats? Recommended.
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Jay W thank you for dealing with each point, the only two things I query is that I watched that Dateline piece and the perception I took out of it was that the reporter was incredulous to the fact that the soldiers allowed him to tape the burning, as he knew that it was desecrating and inflammatory, and that the US actually directly funded and trained some of those death squads who were attacking the socialist governments in South America. The US just turned a blind eye when Pinochet was doing the killing.
This is partly the reason why when America went into Iraq it is not given the benefit of the doubt, and should be scrutinized closely given its past history; it is not the paragon of virtue its stanch supporters make it out to be.
I do think that many from the left are too quick to use the anti-war mantra and acknowledge it would have been interesting, with the French and Russians playing politics on the issue, how it would have played out if indeed it had turned out he had those WMDs.
So while in principle the toppling of Saddam was a good thing the Neo-cons were so gung-ho and full of their own ideological bent and all too willing to bend the truth to suit their agenda -not to mention their questionable business links- that they rushed into what was a very complicated situation that needed a sophisticated policy approach and delicate handling in the execution and planning of the post war situation.
They have hijacked American conservatism with their own brand of intellectual incompetence and the US is now paying for that. Before that, the US has been no different from many other countries or powers looking out for their own national interest or, when they get to super power status, drunk on their own power and moral self-righteousness.
There may be a law of history that those nations that reach this pinnacle seem always to abuse this power, overextend themselves, go into denial and decline. Many believe that is exactly what the US is doing now.
So what I’m trying to get across is the best thing one from the right could do is to be true to those values you sincerely hold, don’t get defensive just because some from the left are being obstinate, but do critically examine the actions of US and condemn them when they don’t adhere to the principles you hold.
I do believe I’m starting to hear that some in the GOP are starting to regret the Neo-con agenda not only as it could cost them their seats, but because it will actually set back freedom and democracy in the Middle East and tarnish the reputation that some have sincerely tried to build for the US as the champion of the free world.
re: Question time or a time to question
Simon Moffitt "and that the US actually directly funded and trained some of those death squads who were attacking the socialist governments in South America. The US just turned a blind eye when Pinochet was doing the killing".
And so did the KGB and Cuba fund the activities of groups in direct opposition.
Your original assertion regarding Chile is wrong because the USA did not have a direct involvement in the overthrow of Allende. That they did has now become part of Western communist mythology.
The USA attempted to fund his election defeat in 1970 by giving money to his opponent Jorge Alessandri whilst the KGB gave a lot more money to Allende. Neither party won a clear majority of the vote and Allende was made President by a third party.
Cutting a long story short by 73 the nation was in a mess and his one time loyal General Pinochet had no other option due to public pressure but to take control of the nation. The USA was not involved directly with these moves.
The overthrow of this particular Government was only a matter of time. The USA did not need to give any aid toward this taking place.
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Jay White once again displays his astonishing ignorance of history and total lack of credibility by asserting that the US was not directly involved in Pinochet taking over the government of Chile. What utter nonsense! The US were up to there ears in the coup that toppled Allende. Just Google up Project Fubelt to see the extent. For declassified documents regarding US involvement go here
link here
re: Question time or a time to question
Wow, Jay White, talk about rewriting history.
I guess the significance of the date 9/11 was lost on you?
If you see what happened in Chile this way, then you must similarly support the insurgency in Iraq.
Maybe the Iraqis object to Govts installed by a third party as well.
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"Would you like to show me why you think US interference in Chile bought about the eventual downfall of the Allende Government (which we were originally discussing). I would be most interested to have a debate on this subject."
Why? It is common knowledge that the US was involved, and why it was involved.
You are the only person who cannot accept this. That is your problem, personally I can't imagine what evidence you would accept. Your comments to date have showed such sycophantic regurgitation of the 'official line' from Washington and Howard, that I doubt if you are even capable of expressing an independent opinion.
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Malcolm B. Duncan I never said that what America did in South America was "good". Who is putting words into who's mouth? What I did attempt to show was the reasons they thought they should be involved there. They also were not the only foreign power involved there.
Would you like to show me why you think US interference in Chile bought about the eventual downfall of the Allende Government (which we were originally discussing). I would be most interested to have a debate on this subject.
I think myth has overtaken reality on this subject.
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Let me get this straight Jay White. On the planet Blanco (the one you seem to inhabit) it is legitimate to argue in this fashion: what the US does is good; even if what the US does is not good, bad people (the KGB for example) did the same; if everyone is doing it is ok even if it is not good; therefore, even if people think the US interfered in Chile with the Allende Government (a proposition which I would have thought, on planet Earth, was incontrovertible), it didn't so there.
This ignores the middle ground that what both the US and the KGB were wont to do was inherently wrong.
If you would care to leave planet Blanco, I am sure Abide-with-me Nile could find you a place in the Christian Democratic Party.