Webdiary - Independent, Ethical, Accountable and Transparent
header_02 home about login header_06
sidebar-top content-top

Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Anti-terrorism raid

Australian terror attack averted: police
NineMSN, Tuesday Nov 8 09:31 AEST
Police raid homes in Melbourne and Sydney
One of the nine men arrested in anti-terrorism raids across Melbourne overnight is the outspoken Melbourne Muslim cleric Abu Bakr, his lawyer says.
Criminal lawyer Rob Stary earlier declined to name the men he represented who were arrested and charged after early morning raids.
But Mr Stary replied: "Yes" when asked by ABC radio if one of the men arrested was Abu Bakr.
Nine men have been charged in Melbourne with terrorism related offences and six were being held in Sydney after a joint counter-terrorism strike across the two states, the Australian Federal Police (AFP) said. - http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=70976

Costello links raids to law change
NineMSN Tuesday Nov 8 09:32 AEST
Treasurer Peter Costello has indicated that raids on terror suspects in Sydney and Melbourne are directly related to last week's amendment to federal anti-terrorism laws.
Police believe they foiled a large scale terrorist attack early Tuesday when they arrested 15 people after swooping on homes in Sydney and Melbourne.
Mr Costello refused to go into detail about the intelligence received by the federal government that prompted it to urgently recall the Senate last week to pass the amendment to the anti-terrorism law.
But he strongly indicated Tuesday's raids were a result of the legislative change. - http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=70994

Terror targets 'not known'
SMH, November 8, 2005 - 8:43AM
Police say they have foiled a large scale terrorist attack, arresting 15 people after swooping on homes in Sydney and Melbourne early today.
The raids appear to have targeted suspects alleged to be involved in the potential terrorist threat involving the two cities that was announced by the federal government last week. - http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/terror-targets-not-known/2005/11/08/1131212028240.html

No one charged with planning attack: lawyer
SMH, November 8, 2005 - 8:22AM
Melbourne lawyer Rob Stary said he represented eight people arrested in Melbourne early today, most of whom he said had been charged with being members of a banned organisation.
Mr Stary said none of his clients had been charged in relation to the planning of any attack. - http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/no-one-charged-with-planning-attack-lawyer/2005/11/08/1131212031424.html

Security risk cited as imam ordered out
SMH,November 8, 2005, By Tom Allard
An Iranian-born imam who has lived in Australia for more than a decade will be deported after the Federal Court upheld ASIO's finding that he was a risk to national security.
Sheik Mansour Leghaei is a prominent Shiite cleric, father of four and convenor of the Imam Hussein Islamic Centre in Sydney who has been under ASIO surveillance virtually since he arrived in Australia. -http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/security-risk-cited-as-imam-ordered-out/2005/11/07/1131212008761.html

400 police in anti-terror raids
The Australian, November 08, 2005
FIFTEEN people, including a prominent Muslim cleric, were arrested in raids involving some 400 officers in Sydney and Melbourne this morning in an operation police said "disrupted ... the final stages of a large scale terrorist attack".
Nine people were arrested in Melbourne, including Abu Bakr, a prominent radical Islamic cleric who has praised Osama bin Laden, while another six were held in Sydney.
Those arrested in Melbourne are expected to appear in court this morning.  - http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,17176277%255E12377,00.html

Arrests made in counter-terrorism raids
ABC Online, Tuesday, November 8, 2005
Commissioner Moroney says a terrorist attack has been foiled.
"I am satisfied that we have disrupted what I would regard as the final stages of a terrorist attack or the launch of a terrorist attack in Australia," he said.
The planned target of the attack is not known.
The Commissioner says the raids are the result of a three-year investigation.
Media leak
Meanwhile, authorities have been accused of publicising the raids by leaking information about them to the media.
Islamic Friendship Association of Australia spokesman Keysar Trad says sections of the media knew ahead of time about the raids.
He has questioned the motives of such a leak.
Laws amended
The raids follow an urgent amendment to the Federal Government's anti-terrorism laws that was rushed through Parliament last week.
Mr Costello has told ABC Radio's AM program that certain intelligence matters were brought to the Government's attention about a potential terrorist threat.
Labor's shadow attorney-general, Nicola Roxon, says the party's support will be conditional on the Coalition abandoning provisions in the legislation against subversive speech.
She says even federal Attorney-General Philip Ruddock has admitted they are not properly drafted.
"He should conduct a review on the sedition offences and put that forward as a separate proposal," Ms Roxon said. - http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200511/s1499839.htm

PM 'can't recall' if AFP urged law changes 18 months ago
ABC Online, Tuesday, November 8, 2005
"I'm not saying it may not have been put to somebody else in the Government, but I don't personally recall," he said.
"And I say that deliberately because I don't have an infallible memory, I don't pretend I do.
"I don't personally recall that particular amendment being previously pressed on me, personally with a sense of urgency." - http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200511/s1499810.htm

Beattie backs PM's decision to publicise terror threat
ABC Online, Tuesday, November 8, 2005
Queensland Premier Peter Beattie has defended the Prime Minister's decision to make public a possible terrorist threat last week. - http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200511/s1499678.htm

Army shoot-to-kill on top of new laws
SMH, November 8, 2005, By Craig Skehan and Marian Wilkinson
Soldiers will have shoot-to-kill powers before the Commonwealth Games in March to deal with any serious terrorism threat, says the Foreign Affairs Minister, Alexander Downer. - http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/army-shoottokill-on-top-of-new-laws/2005/11/07/1131212008755.html

The default setting of the liberal state
Australian Policy Online - 7 November 2005
The liberal state and the security state are the Janus face of the same entity, writes Ian Hunter
An array of commentators has reacted to the Australian government's proposed anti-terrorism laws by branding them an unprecedented and unjustifiable infringement of civil rights and liberties. According to the president of the Law Council of Australia, John North: 'The major concern is that when a government gives power to police to stop, arrest, question and detain for long periods people not reasonably suspected of a crime we have crossed into uncharted territory. Nothing can justify giving up such fundamental rights'. Writing in the Australian Financial Review (3 October), Geoffrey Barker agrees, viewing the measures as a betrayal of liberal democratic institutions and traditions: 'But now we may be entering the twilight of liberal democracy as the spectre of the national security state looms larger and closer'. - http://www.apo.org.au/webboard/results.chtml?filename_num=42404

Labor questions timing of new counter-terrorism laws
ABC Online, Australia - 7 November 2005
The federal Opposition Leader has accused the Government of acting too slowly to expand the role of the military in the case of a terrorist attack. - http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200511/s1498921.htm

Editorial: Security comes first
Australian, Australia - 4 November 2005
With bipartisan state and federal support for proposed legislation to combat terrorism, it is time the self-appointed liberty lobby proclaimed its priorities. It is not good enough to announce that the laws will impinge the rights of a few individuals, as if this alone cripples the case for them. It is not good enough to pontificate about precedent and abhor any law that enhances the ability of the police and security services to protect us against terror attack. That is because these laws are not the work of an authoritarian regime determined to silence its critics and perpetuate its own power. - http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,17143789%255E7583,00.html

Top lawyer damns 'unfair' terror laws
The Age (subscription), Australia - 7 November 2005
The Howard Government's anti-terrorism laws are abhorrent to Australia's liberal democratic values and "could not and would not be passed" in the US, according to a leading defence lawyer. http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/top-lawyer-damns-unfair-terror-laws/2005/11/06/1131211945770.html

Blog Views

Sailing Close to the Wind
So there I was on Thursday night, waiting to blog 24 when John Howard and Philip Ruddock arrive on my doorstep to tell me about an imminient terrorist threat about to engulf the nation. John and Phil had the legislative side down with some new laws they were going to bang through parliament, but they needed someone to go in on the ground and bag them some Terrs, and after reading my 24 reviews, they realised I was the man for the job. I can't talk too much about my Thursday night activities, but when you hear criticisms of the government saying that they won't make any arrests on the basis of the new counter-terrorism laws, you will just be able to have a quiet wink and know that the spirit of Jack Bauer lives on here in Australia. http://www.rowen.id.au/blog/2005/11/445/

Why I miss Joh Bjelke-Petersen
I am amazed at just what a cowardly bunch the ALP has become. They had a wonderful opportunity to apply pressure on the federal government's industrial relations legislation by making mischief on the 'anti-terrorism' legislation. The commonwealth government has moved these two pieces of legislation on the same week, clearly hoping that the ensuing battle would obscure the content of both. Instead of making issues Beazley just could not wait to give his support to the legislation, announcing last week that the opposition would pass the legislation even if they had problems with it. This was before issues were raised about the haste and legality of the anti-terrorism legislation. http://jeffrichards.blogspot.com/2005/11/why-i-miss-joh-bjelke-petersen.html


Ex-chief slams Libs as cruel, scary - National
FORMER federal Liberal Party president John Valder has launched a blistering attack on the Howard Government which, he said, had betrayed the principles it once stood for.
His attack came as Defence Minister Robert Hill yesterday announced plans to strengthen laws before the Commonwealth Games that enable troops to help police protect the streets if a terrorist attack or threat occurred, and give troops the power to shoot to kill, search and seize and detain people. http://pharoz.blogspot.com/2005/11/ex-chief-slams-libs-as-cruel-scary.html

Man of Steel or drama queen?
Southerly Buster
Sooner or later the government will run out of new ideas for laws against terrorism. The latest... of years. Australia faced considerably more serious threats during the Second World War. No-one... legislation, it is important to remember that in Australia there is no effective human rights - http://southerlybuster.blogspot.com/2005/11/man-of-steel-or-drama-queen.html


Terrorism and poverty reduction on SAARC agenda
Daily Times, Pakistan - 7 November 2005
Regional anti-terrorism strategies, poverty alleviation and economic cooperation will be on the agenda at this week's summit of South Asian nations here, senior Bangladeshi officials said on Sunday. The South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation (SAARC) summit, which begins on November 12, will be attended by the leaders of India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Nepal, Bhutan, Sri Lanka and the Maldives. - http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2005%5C11%5C07%5Cstory_7-11-2005_pg7_23

The Age of Anxiety McCarthyism to Terrorism
The Christian Century - 6 November 2005
On June 1, 1950, when the United States was gripped by fears of nuclear war and treason, when demagoguery was being practiced on a scale unparalleled in our history, one bright moment pierced the darkness. http://www.christiancentury.org/article.lasso?id=1438

Torn between tolerance, terrorism The Register-Guard, Oregon - 6 November 2005 Why would religious Muslims choose to come here, of all places?'' a city resident wondered as we discussed the tense debate over Islamic radicalism in the Netherlands.
Within a few blocks of where we spoke, near the modern Opera House and the painter Rembrandt's historic home, tourists walked across quaint canal bridges into coffee shops where varieties of marijuana fill the menu, and gay couples stepped into Amsterdam's City Hall for wedding ceremonies that government officials have been conducting here for years without controversy. - http://www.registerguard.com/news/2005/11/06/b1.ed.col.dutch.1106.p1.php?section=opinion


Lawmakers Call for Limits on FBI Power to Demand Records in ...
New York Times, United States - 6 November 2005
Republicans and Democrats in Congress called on Sunday for greater restrictions on the Federal Bureau of Investigation's ability to demand business and personal records in terrorism investigations without a judge's approval and to retain the records indefinitely. - http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/07/politics/07fbi.html

Senators Question Terrorism Inquiries
Washington Post, United States - 7 November 2005
Lawmakers expressed concern yesterday that the FBI was aggressively pushing the powers of the anti-terrorist USA Patriot Act to retrieve private phone and financial records of ordinary people. - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/06/AR2005110601038.html



Bitter Blair accepts defeat over plan to hold terrorism suspects ...
Scotsman, United Kingdom - 7 November 2005
Tony Blair has been forced into a humiliating climbdown over the controversial Terrorism Bill and is set to announce a compromise over proposals to allow the police to detain suspects for 90 days without charge. Key points
. Tony Blair forced to compromise over Terrorism Bill
. Follows controversy over plans to hold suspects for 90 days without charge
. Bill unlikely to be passed in Commons without changes
Key quote: "I will feel a sense of a defeat, not so much for me, as it were - although obviously that's true - but for the security of the country" - Tony Blair http://news.scotsman.com/politics.cfm?id=2204992005

Blair warns of Tory 'elephant trap'
Scotland on Sunday, UK - 4 November 2005
Tony Blair has admitted the Labour Party was facing a "very tough and critical moment" following one of the most difficult weeks of his premiership.
Following the resignation of David Blunkett and the Commons mauling of the Terrorism Bill, the Prime Minister warned his critics on the Labour backbenches not to allow the opposition to "decouple" him from the party - http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2198442005

Laws for Insecurity

Laws are presently before federal Parliament that will give police unprecedented detention and search powers. These laws will also expand the government's power to ban organisations and prosecute Australians who politically dissent. They pose profound questions for all Australians. Will these laws promote the safety of Australians? Will they, on the other hand, inflict insecurity on Australians by increasing the risk of racial and religious profiling? What will they mean for the health of Australia's democracy and multiculturalism?

Come to a forum to find out more about these laws and their implications


  • Brian Walters SC - Liberty Victoria (Chair)
  • Honourable Petro Gerogiou - House of Representatives Member for Kooyong
  • Professor George Williams - Gilbert & Tobin Centre for Public Law, University of New South Wales, and Chair Victorian Human Rights Consultation Committee (TBC)
  • Amir Butler - Co-convenor, Australian Muslim Civil Rights Advocacy Network (TBC)
  • Victoria Sentas - Spokesperson on terrorism laws, Federal of Community Legal Centres
  • Joo Cheong Tham - Lecturer, Law Faculty, University of Melbourne, Committee Member, Liberty Victoria.   

Melbourne University Law School

Room G08, Ground Floor, 185 Pelham St, Carlton

6 - 730pm 17 November 2005


Notice of forthcoming event in Sydney

Sydney Greens Forum, "Subversion of Democracy"

6.30pm Thursday 17th November
@ The Mori Gallery, 168 Day St, Sydney (near Cockle Bay, Darling Harbour)

The Subversion of Democracy.  What we can do about the Assault on Freedom.

Speakers include:

  • Tony Kevin (Visiting Fellow, ANU; SIEV-X campaigner)
  • Keysar Trad (Islamic Friendship Association of Australia)
  • More to be announced

The public service politicised. Parliamentary process debased. Muslims targeted for house arrest. New shoot-to-kill powers. Political dissent labelled as sedition. Orwell's 1984, or Australia circa 2005? With democratic institutions being eroded and the era of the police state upon us, we ask how we got to this stage and how we can start to take back the rights that politicians have stolen from us. Come along and join the discussion.

For more information contact Tad 0408 690 215, tadtietze@bigpond.com

[ category: ]

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Probably the most unfortunate thing about these raids is that if the investigation had been going on for three years then had Howard's hype not blown the cover then the police and other authorities might have learned more and been able to do even more with the network involved.

Unfortunately the focus will be on the word "arrests", not the fact that the investigation has been going on for "three years" and that could only have happened if the police and others already had to power to act if and when they needed to. They didn't need the new law to deal with this matter but the continuing beat up will continue apace now, led by Howard, Costello and Ruddock already.

Hopefully the voices on the dangers of the sedition issues will prevail with some sanity and hey, if we get a proper Bill of Rights out of this... that might almost make all of this worthwhile... almost.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

US Secretary Of Defense Donald Rumsfeld will be in Adelaide from November 16-18, it is believed.

Secretary of the Rumsfeld Rice Reception Commitee Ms Jeannie Lucas says that venues for the visit will include the Adelaide Convention Centre and Town Hall.

Ms Lucas says that the information comes from a number of sources.

Mr Rumsfeld will be attending the joint meeting of Australian and US Ministers, Ausmin.

His visit was originally intended to coincide with that of US Secretary Of State Condileeza Rice.

According to Australian Foreign Affairs Minister Downer, Ms Rice cancelled her November visit because "Leftists" in Adelaide were planning to protest.

The No-War Coalition of South Australia are hosting a rally on the steps of Parliament House on Thursday November 16 at 4.30 pm. Other events are planned.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

The terrorist laws in action working already.

I for one am glad that in Australia we have a Government willing to protect its citizens. So many other nations can learn from us in this situation.

No quarter in the fight against the evil of terrorism should ever be given. Every terrorist found in this nation should face harsh punishment.

Decent Australians from all walks of life would expect no less.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Well done Russell Darroch, a bunch of people planning to kill and maim innocent Australians are caught and you think the most unfortunate thing about it all is something about Howard blowing their cover. And we get this just after he was hounded by the media and others for more information. I think it's unfortunate that we have allowed people into this country who want to kill us. I think that is the most unfortunate aspect of these raids. However it is VERY fortunate that our security forces have caught them before they got to do that. Kudos to them for keeping us safe.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

A public forum on The New Laws of Terror and Sedition at UWA Perth on Friday November 4th spoke to a full capacity crowd. Speakers included Lawyer Mark Cox who gave the legal aspect of the new laws that are frightening to ordinary citizens.

Greens Senator Rachel Siewert, said that the first culprit should be the PM John Howard who has broken the Constitution by enacting these new laws without due democratic process with the people of this country.

MP for Fremantle Dr Carmen Lawrence, who flew in directly from Queensland, said she will cross the floor on these laws. She received a resounding endorsement for her brave stand. There are few MP's in the ALP who show such common sense and empathy for ordinary citizen's rights.

Other speakers included the secretary of the Entertainment union who warned of the control these laws will have on every form of entertainment as we know it today. Music, art, plays, films TV radio and journalists even those speaking of peace will be silenced by the law on sedition. Pop music will be censored and investigating journalists will be silenced.

The president of WA Council of Churches - Rosemary Longhurst, a Quaker spoke on behalf of the community of faith that decried the move to terrorise the community.

The State Government did not go unscathed as all at COAG conformed to Howard's terror laws when each State already had laws to protect against terror. 54A and the Bikey law were already in place said an ex MLC. The concern was the extended power these laws gave to the police and the removal of the separation of power from the judiciary to the political. Another ALP State MLC Louse Pratt said she would not cross the floor despite calls for her to cross the floor. Only Greens MLC Giz Watson said The Greens would not support Premier Gallop on this.

The media acceptance will mean that terror is kept alive by threats that have not been proved. Muslims are living in fear today in what was once a free country. An Islamic speaker told of how he was used to living in terror in Pakistan and now the terror is here. "It is not a happy state to be living under such fear", he said

Our security services already have the power we do not need these draconian laws. So why are they being activated now? Who is behind this shift to community fear and terror? That is what the people present wanted to know. Have these laws been framed in response to events in New
York, London and Bali? Are we going back to the Vietnam War days of spooks keeping files on students and those that write letters to the newspapers? It's back to McCarthy era where people even in this state lived in fear of their homes being raided and books being burned said
one speaker who experienced this when her parents supported the communist party.

This time around it will be our computers. Our means of communication will be curtailed by these new laws. How will our lives change under the Laws of Sedition and Terror? It's a good idea to talk about it now. At a future date the opportunity may well be lost! A motion was put by the meeting and it can be viewed on the Web at UWA. Follow the link.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

So those new terror laws were needed, eh? Whoops. I guess all that 'if terror attacks are real, why is there no increase in alert, it mustn't be real' or 'it's only a political ploy by HoWARd to turn our country into a 1984 state (damn am I getting sick of that Orwell analogy).

Right now, if everyone who said that the new laws were a crock, a political ploy, only a calculated attack on anti-government dissent, etc, had to eat crow, the bird would be an endangered species. Perhaps this might give you a bit more respect for the government. Though probably not. It's easier to hate than to think.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Jay White and Dave Sanders, surely you are reading fully the details that we have been given so far. None of these men have been charged with any terrorist act yet. The only charges so far are belonging to a prescribed terorist organisation. We must also give these people the benefit of being presumed innocent unless proved differently. No doubt however many people will buy into the hysteria whipped up by politicians and the media. So far I've read and heard several times that one was carrying a backpack. The last time we heard such talk an innocent man was gunned down in the UK. At this time we must have faith that the authorities had good reasons for their actions.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

So Dave Saunders, how do you know those arrested were 'imports'? If it is anything like the UK they could well be homegrown. And the last time I looked, it has always been an offence in this country to plot, plan and/or conspire to blow people or property up, or otherwise wilfully endanger the life of others.

Jay, you need to take a Bex and lie down. Terorism does not need the moniker 'evil' to be opposed and thwarted. The issue here is, exactly what is the most efficacious way to thwart those who would kill or harm others, without destroying our liberty and freedoms in the process. The government's terrorism Bill does not persuade me, because no-one has yet explained exactly how its provisions would have prevented the UK bombings on July 7th. In particular, I am unpersuaded by Howard's mantra concerning 'operational issues'. I am far more persuaded and reassured by the calm and competent performance of the Victorian Police Comissioner than I am by the chicken littles' 'War on Terror' BS.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Listen closely and you can almost hear the children hitting the water.

What a gigantic crock.

The timing/coordination of the police action, the choreography, the timing of the fear factor, the flagging popularity polls (read IR), and most disgusting of all the slavering predictability of the media on the subject of terrorism has allowed this cabal of lickspittle second-rate posers to get away with another huge public lie.

NO charges made in relation to a terrorist attack - and, chemicals (that alone are harmless).

I, and anyone else with a rural upbringing; or anyone posessing the most basic electronic search technique could construct an explosive device from ingredients found in ANY home. Therefore ANY household in this formerly great country of ours could feature on the shock/horror newscasts as a den of terrorists.

Also, a cleric. This would prove them guilty in the Western mindset. I have never quite understood the power of the Muslim cleric, that makes them personally responsible for the actions of their congregation.

I do not recall any cries for the incarceration of Ian Paisly, who for decades has preached violence and murder on a far more personal level than any imam I have ever known (either personally or even by reputation). I do, however recall the self-rightous outrage that swept the West when Desmond Tutu was called a 'terrorist'.

If this is not simply disingenious - this blatant racial/religious targeting - then it is simply evil. The fact is that this action WILL radicalise those susceptible and WILL lead to a 'homegrown' terror attack.


re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Let's hope Stuart, Jay and Dave aren't on the jury. On the basis of some press releases, with no knowledge of the charges or the facts, they have already decided those arrested are guilty of heinous crimes, and are trumpeting the success and wisdom of Howard's oppressive laws.

Precisely the response the government was looking for, I should imagine.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

I think we are all owed as citizens, an explanation of how changes in legislation helped in these arrests. I am not disputing that they did but intensly curious.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

In this instance, I don't give much credit to the official account of today's arrests, an account that will undoubtedly evolve as snippets of info are proffered or 'leaked'.

Nor will I believe in the ‘official version’ - and more generally in the bona fides of our so-called 'intelligence agencies' - until transparency and due process make a come-back. Evidence for crimes must be presented and tested in a credible public arena such as open court.

The chance of that happening in this case, IMO, is zilch - without a public demand that would need to be led by courageous 'opinion formers'. No such call is likely from Australia's intelligentsia, a sad lot. We're been conditioned to not even hope for fair dinkum inquiries into each new atrocity - and certainly never to be so audacious as to demand it. The Hilton bombings fiasco established the trend.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Jane Doe, whatever.

I think most Australians would be happy with the outcomes. They certainly were in favour of the law changes.

The left-wing apologists have little if any real say in Australia these days. Most people it would seem don't listen to them nor take them or their yokel backwater thinking seriously.

They were correct in not taking them seriously this time. I think the goings on in France are further proof to the intelligence of that decision.

Australia now has a handful of potentially very dangerous people behind bars and hopefully soon will have them out of the nation for good. Good work Australia!

Australia should be a very proud nation today.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Jay and Stuart, it's time you two grew up and read a little bit about McCarthy during the 1950s and his un-American house committee. This is an exact parallel. It also parallels nazism.

Whip up the fear and loathing against a particular group then arrest them if they mumble about the mistreatment.

A big staged set of "raids" with 400 cops looking like they are out having a bloody picnic and 15 people arrested for being part of a group.

The AWB have supporting Saddam Hussein for years to the tune of $300 million and they have not been arrested for belonging to a group that fostered terrorists and terrorism have they?

The hypocrisy is breathtaking.

Now for a reality check on the police chiefs in Victoria, NSW and SA and their records.

Nixon was in charge during the bloodiest ever gangland war with 27 odd murders, corrupt cops, bag men and so on. She now expects us to believe that arresting nine Australian citizens for "belonging to a group" is rational and part of a "terror" plot that just had to have the word "a" instead of "the".

Moroney couldn't control the death of one young Aboriginal boy which brought about the Redfern riots which were woefully mishandled.

He was in charge of the mess in MacQuarie Fields and mishandled it to my memory.

My police commissioner has not said anything this morning but he is well known for sending out the star force to pop red balloons in Baxter this year and then blaming road deaths on detention protestors.

There are 300,000 muslims in this nation who have had their roots going back over 160 years yet we are treating them as if they just arrived.

There were no Lutherans when the Muslims came.

The Muslims in Australia have not locked up thousands of Australian children in the desert for years on end, tear gassed them, beaten them or water cannoned them.

The Muslims in this country didn't go and bomb two Muslim countries because Dubya told them to.

That was us. Now we are letting our government whip up all this fear and loathing of "belonging to a group".

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Any chance we could wait for some facts before we raise our respective, and usual, flags? There's plenty of time for that, in retrospect.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Anyone got any ideas on how Channel 7 (and I'm sure all the rest too) are managing to tout (and have shown some of it as a teaser) that they have footage of the arrests on the scene as they happened? Isn't this so top-secret that the PM couldn't and wouldn't say a thing on it last night on the 7.30 report for fear of jeopardising the operations? Or are the security forces in this country so lax that their communications are able to be scanned by the local media? Surely it couldn't have been leaked could it?

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Dave / Jay, crap. The essence of the issue was in the statement today by senior police that "Senior police said while last week's federal amendments to anti-terror legislation had been a help, the raids would have taken place anyway."

The new laws were essentially irrelevant to what they were doing. The more important question is actually the extent to which Howard's blithering did in fact cause problems for the operational integrity of the entire exercise.

And yes, I do have a problem with our senior politicians endangering the public by putting their own egos before proper national security. I'm a big fan of the latter being done properly by truly COMPETENT people; I have no time for the political grandstanding on either side of the Parliament. As Margo said in one comment last week, Howard continues to put himself above the national interest; I consider this to be extraordinarily dangerous behaviour when the normal checks and balances aren't working.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Could the desperate need for another terrorist stunt be in any way linked to the fact that David Nary, a senior SAS soldier, has been killed in relatively unknown circumstances in an undisclosed country near Iraq. Howard wants no questions asked.

HoWARd always knew that he was safe from public criticism because there had been no deaths of Australian Defense personnel - who really believes that it was just a training operation?

Howard likes the public to believe that the Australian Defense Forces are only acting in supportive, not combat roles, because the Australian public was against our involvement in a war of aggression towards a defenseless country.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Your indulging in some Orwellian beliefs yourself Stuart Lord. So far I've heard varying reports from authorities that the new laws enacted the other day - which are not the very repressive ones still to come - were variously used and not used.

If these raids are everything they claim to be then why do we need new restrictions on our freedom?

If they result in convictions of genuine terrorists then our present laws are adequate nor are these arrests anything to do with the Howard government but the various policing authorities involved, although no doubt Howard will attempt to take credit. However these same authorities haven't had great successes to date so I'm reserving my judgement until all the facts are revealed - and we would never hear these facts after the new repressive laws are enacted. Rather than "eating crow", I suggest those eagerly wishing that this vindicates John Howard should resist crowing themselves and await further information.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Remove your rose-tinted specs Stephen Biddle, for sadly our enforcement agencies have PR departments worthy of a Hollywood film studio, and sometimes with as much creative energy. I simply didn't believe the hullaballoo of the past few days was for nought and now I see it wasn't. But then I'm psychic - or is it just too damned obvious for all to see?

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Jay White, obviously Howard doesn't agree with you.

Why the need for his fascist sedition laws otherwise?

Then you denigrate so called 'leftist apologists', while being a blatant Howard sycophant yourself.

Your attitude reminds me of so many before the invasion of Iraq that knew they were right as well. Everyone who disagreed was an appeaser or apologist for Saddam Hussein - we were told to trust our intelligence agencies. However, over 2 1/2 year on and still no WMD's (suprise suprise).

And you wonder why so many have trouble believing anything Howard says these days.

Trust us? I don't think so.

IMHO some of your attitudes (eg guilty until proven innocent), have more place in Saddam Hussein's Iraq, than in Australia.

Or in 1930s Germany, where the compliance of the people led to one of the worst attrocities of the 20th century against human kind.

The thinking and strategies of our PM seem remarkably similar to those of Hitler.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Today, July 21st 1946, Jerusalem police nabbed a bunch of Arab terrorists who had been planning to blow up the Queen of Sheba Holiday Inn. The gallant officers, who put their lives on the line in the course of duty, were photographed beside their haul, several bags of bomb-making chemicals. The undercover operation crowned months of highly secretive work, using loyal spies and trustworthy informants.

Footnote: the contents of the bags have been analysed, and now police are trying to locate a local sand-merchant, a Mr Begin.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Yeah Duncan, I can't believe it either. To get the Liberal federal government's polls up, Johnny goes to the Labour premiers, and says "look im having a hard time, how about a hand?"

Then the Labour premiers go to the NSW police and between them, ASIO, AFP and Victorian police they all draw up this plan to make sure that John Howard's opinion poll increases.

I mean fair dinkum Duncan, "NO charges made in relation to a terrorist attack, and chemicals."


re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Stephen Biddle, you said, "Anyone got any ideas on how Channel 7 (and I'm sure all the rest too) are managing to tout (and have shown some of it as a teaser) that they have footage of the arrests on the scene as they happened? Isn't this so top-secret that the PM couldn't and wouldn't say a thing on it last night on the 7.30 report for fear of jeopardising the operations?"

Yes I do, they scan emergency service radio channels. This is how they know where traffic snarls, bank robberies and murder scenes are. Tow truck drivers and glaziers are in or the same info. Channel Seven and the Daily Telegraph have vehicles on 24/7 that respond to police radio transmissions in metro Sydney. It is the leaks before the raids that are more concerning.

These individuals have all been charged with matters, and as such they will have to appear before the court. I have not seen a list of the charges and the suggestion that the only charges are to do with being a part of a terrorist group came from the barrister representing the accused. Not particularly impartial, especially when you consider he was a member of the ALP for 25 years.

The fact these people have been charged will require full disclosure from the prosecution. Magistrates/Judges/Juries can then determine the facts.

We can endlessly speculate as to what the evidence is, or we could wait and see before we declare the imminent descent of Australia into full blown nazism.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Hi Duncan, you may be right. These people may be innocents who simply had household chemicals in their homes and a misunderstood cleric (although I've heard some of things that he has said and I think they were pretty clear).

OR MAYBE, just maybe, the authorities have just arrested some dangerous terrorists who were planning to do innocent civillians harm.

Conspiracy theories can be fun but they aren't always right.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13


Sadly the government did do something by taking us into Iraq and a lot of people are dead, just not here fortunately.

Is it time to remind all that these arrests or talks of terrorist acts would probably not be happening if we hadn't helped invade a foreign land on bogus information?

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Michael de Angelos, it is obvious ... unless a person has their eyes closed and their head firmly wedged somewhere.

If people want to see terrorists at work, I have linked the video of Falluja on the Irises thread. It is tough stuff, what with the skin of women and children burned off their bones. And other horrors. The Yanks call white phosphorus "Whisky Pete" and broadcast in the open to their forces when they are going to drop it .. on civilian areas.

And we, through the lies and manipulations of Howard involving in a war of aggression, are complicit in this.

We can hope for the day when police will break into his house at 2.30 am and take him off to face justice.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

All terrorists in Australia must face swift and harsh punishment. Both Labor and Liberal along with most decent and law abiding Australians would agree. I am still concerned these new laws do not go far enough.

Left-wing apologists and head in the sand types should by now understand this fact. There is no place in this country for terrorists.

I hope more than anything they wipe the egg from their faces quickly and come around to understanding one simple fact. They are either for terrorism or they are against it.

Hopefully many are now wanting to be on the side of a freedom and a peace loving nation such as Australia.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Michael de Angelos, did we have no ME terrorism before Iraq? I seem to remember S11 happening before then. And Bali.

Oh, and how about one of the London bombers training with JI 5 years before the attacks? I guess he must have seen into the future.

You can't blame everything on Iraq. Far from it. But it is convenient, so why not use it?

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Marilyn Shepherd, you do realise that your constant exhortation to those who disagree with you to "grow up" is in itself an infantile tactic, don't you?

Have you seen the footage of what happened outside the court in Melbourne today Marilyn? What's your take on that - that Howard hired actors to physically attack the media?

The continuous parroting of paranoid conspiracy theories is not a sign of maturity Marilyn. Not even Bob Brown is stupid enough to be peddling the sort of deluded fantasies we're seeing from some contributors on here this afternoon.

If you could expand on your "exact parallel" between this and HCUAC in the 1950s I'd be grateful.

I don't think Alger Hiss was (allegedly) stockpiling chemicals, but if you have evidence to the contrary I'll happily retract.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Sacre bleu! "[Their barrister] a member of the ALP for 25 years, Andrew Gill. Unforgivable. Has the ALP become a proscribed terrorist organisation overnight?

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Anne: "The thinking and strategies of our PM seem remarkably similar to those of Hitler."

Pulease! You may disagree with policies of the federal government but please keep some perspective. These policies are nothing like the policies of the Nazi's. To make such a comparison is an insult to those who suffered under and fought against the evil of Nazism.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

I too am a bit thrown Andrew that a barrister was an ALP member for 25 years. Particularly as on this matter, they are at one with the Coalition. What does it all mean?

One would assume though, he would be prejudiced in favour of his client if justice is to be done.

I don't see the relevance Aaron Kennedy of citing the ugly scenes outside the court involving a cameraman. Do we know who these people were and if they were connected with anyone involved?

I think though Marilyn Shepherd raises very valid points about the AWB's financing of Saddam Hussein. This is a matter that needs serious investigation and every aspect of our involvement in Iraq before and after the invasion needs to be investigated. It appears we funded the tyrant to do his evil work.

Us sceptics do of course have "egg on our faces" as claimed by Ron Boswell today. When has John Howard ever done anything that was not carefully calculated and planned. Rather than claim he was dramatising the need for new laws last week, it should have been obvious to all that the safety of Australian citizens has been for many years now the perfect political opportunity for the man and something was afoot. He played this one superbly, if not immorally and deviously.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

"You can't blame everything on Iraq". But you can in this case Stuart Lord if we are to believe the AFP. They claim that one of those charged wanted to be the first suicide bomber in this country because of our involvement in Iraq.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Jay White, you're not real, are you? You're just a wind-up? So many fascile cliches in one little post that serve no useful purpose other than to wind-up those who are trying to present some sort of rational response to Howard's media-driven anti-terrorist propaganda drive.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Jay, it really is quite pathetic isn't it. When today ASIO and our Federal and State police services stopped what appears to be a terror attack, that most on here can only moan about it.

Not one person today on the "other side" has said "thanks". One day they will wake up and realise they are the reason John Howard is in power.

Imagine today being a first time reader to WEBDIARY, and reading this thread. Most would say "is that what the other side stands for?"

I guess I should shut up. Their conspiracy theories and moaning and groaning will keep the liberals in for years.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

"They are either for terrorism or they are against it." Wow Jay White, why do I get the feeling that's the same as "you are for John Howard or against him? I wonder where that leaves me as one who proudly voted for Keating in '96.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Not to my knowledge has the ALP become proscribed. My question however was one of impartial comment.

The barrister representing the accused is obviously not impartial. He is representing one side in the best light he can.

Does he offer impartial commentry on a contentious federal Liberal bill? A long time membership of the ALP would suggest otherwise.

He comments should be considered in the light of being one side in a highly contentious debate, not impartial fact. This does not make what he says right or wrong - just that it should not be considered as being any more non-partisan than anything the Prime Minister says.

Don't see anything unforgivable about that!

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Good grief Andrew Gill: "Yes I do, they scan emergency service radio channels".

If our security services can be compromised that easily no wonder they have such little success. The Channel Seven footage from the middle of the night as they toted along with police reeks of the politicising of law enforcement. The co-opting of the media in these type of actions is extremely dangerous. We will never know when that line is crossed-from the public's need to know to the over-hyping of potential criminal acts.

I can't say I personally feel I've been spared from what is being described as 'a catastrophic event'. The half a dozen or so small paper bags being loaded into a car boot didn't look terribly dangerous to me.

This is going to be the most fascinating of court cases. Thank God the media will have a long protracted "terrorist" drama to play out in the courts, for when the new laws pass, we will of course be kept in the dark. 'Today Tonight' and 'A Current Affair' must be cock-a-hoop. How clever of them to have the evil cleric Abu Bakr a few months ago spouting his Bin Laden support philosphy. Did none of this man's supporters warn him about keeping a low profile?

It is fairly amusing though to watch State premiers and pollies, police chiefs, the PM and chief bottle washer giving press interviews about how we have all been saved from a dire threat in an attempt to garner some glory. Did someone mention bread and circuses? Oh that's right, they're about to take away the bread.

Now if only we could get that road toll down as well.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Jay/Justin You are both predictable beyond belief.

Just for once how about reading the detail of the comments. The issue before us is another case of Howard misleading all Australians, not just us on the "left". One of the key issues in all of this is the extent to which Howard and Ruddock actually put operational security projects at risk - one normally does CRITICAL things in silence or near silence; this whole hullabaloo was anything but and it is extremely likely that it put this and other operations at risk. Hopefully eventually some competent (and independent) body will be able to check this. The point made earlier was that the police did not need this law to act. And yes, I think Keelty and others are saying the "right things" to make it look OK.

There are quite a few people who I respect who don't think it was OK.

PS And yes, you both successfully wind a lot of people up but that is also getting boring beyond belief, having watched you both do it for months. Not really very helpful, productive, or mature.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Seems we have three types of terrorists now: those in the Bora-Bora mountains, with their mates in cells in various countries and locations; those with choppers, machine guns and lotsa bombs, who terrorise Iraqis (remember that this is still an illegal invasion, not sanctioned by the UN...); and terrorists sitting just above the terrorism bunker under the Australian Parliament House (not big enough for the ALP opposition, as revealed by the PM a while ago); the terrorists who push legislation through that they keep secret and prefer a ONE-DAY Senate Inquiry.

Perhaps we have a fourth type of terrorists actually: the group who terrorise Webdiary and bomb it with their views.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Jay White: “All terrorists in Australia must face swift and harsh punishment.”

As swift and harsh as are consistent with Due Process and the Rule of Law, Jay.

JW: “I am still concerned these new laws do not go far enough.”

Yes, but then we are well aware of your views on freedom and democracy. You don’t seem to like them much. The proposed laws go way too far, and will be abused. Pray that you are not one of the people unjustly destroyed by them.

JW: “Left-wing apologists and head in the sand types should by now understand this fact. There is no place in this country for terrorists.”

Get over the left/right dichotomy crap, please. This is too important. I want to live in a democracy, not a Police State. I am amazed that you prefer the latter. Laws like these did not prevent unrest in South Africa, were used to unaccountably murder thousands in Chile and Argentina, and were not employed by the UK in dealing with the IRA problem.

I agree completely with Benjamin Franklin that those who want to give up their freedom for a little security deserve neither and will end up with neither. While I accept that some, possibly many, people may be naïve, cowardly or hysterical enough to be spooked by the government into supporting these evil laws, and may want their freedom taken away, they have absolutely no right to take mine too.

JW: “I hope more than anything they wipe the egg from their faces quickly and come around to understanding one simple fact.”

I have no egg on my face, and to judge by past record, seem happier with facts than you do.

JW: “They are either for terrorism or they are against it.”

I am against terrorism, including State Terrorism. Opposing the proposed law is not being soft on terrorism, but tough on tyranny!

JW: “Hopefully many are now wanting to be on the side of a freedom and a peace loving nation such as Australia.”

What planet are you doublespeaking from, Jay? This is a country which has recently initiated a war for the first time, and now has a leader hell-bent on establishing a dictatorship. That is not my definition of “freedom and peace loving”. I support the old Australia that did value peace and freedom, and want it back.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Am I being overly paranoid in suggesting that the raids might have acted as a lightning rod for the tightening of powers necessary to "protect" Donald Rumsfeld? If reports that his visit will be next week are true, then no doubt a myriad of US "advisors" are calling the shots by now.

I'm guessing that if last night's activities hadn't occurred then aspersions may have been cast in different directions.

(Excerpt from today's Advertiser)

Although there is no intelligence to suggest a threat, SA police are well aware Mr Rumsfeld is one of the world's top terrorist targets.

Mr Rumsfeld, deputy U.S. Secretary of State Bob Zoellick and a senior U.S. army general are visiting Adelaide for Ausmin - the Australia-United States Ministerial Meeting - on November 17 and 18.

It will be attended by a host of Federal Government representatives including Defence Minister Robert Hill and Foreign Affairs Minister Alexander Downer. SA police are in command of the security operation to protect the entourage, with the assistance of federal police and Australia's intelligence agencies.

All along I'd been assuming that the "terrorist event" that would allow the security clamp-down would occur in Adelaide.

I was wrong.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

... and Richard Tonkin, just proves my point EXACTLY!

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13


If I cast my mind back to this morning I remember saying to my wife that the usual suspects will still criticise this. And I was right!

Just say it Russell, it won’t kill you. "The Police did a bloody good job today"

You don’t have to carry on about Howard, Kelty, and conspiracy theories. Just be thankful that we got this one before we had a London, Madrid, Bali, NYC on our hands. You don’t want that, do you?

Howard didn’t mislead anyone. Two or three days ago he spoke of a credible terrorist thread. From the allegations in court today Id say it was a pretty credible threat. The best you lot can whinge about is that he and Ruddock let the cat out of the bag (which none of the police are complaining about), and media somehow found out about the raid this morning. I mean seriously, seriously pathetic.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Having seen Abu Bakr telling us that there is only Islam Law, not Australian Law. I would now like him to sack his lawyer and lets see how long it takes Allah to get him out of jail.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13


In the light of a very worrying set of laws being rushed through Federal Parliament, it seems to me time that Australians really stood up to be counted. I’m suggesting a National Non-Compliance Day, and soon. Here’s why.

Everyone is highly aware now of the Anti-Terrorist Laws and the Industrial Relations “reforms” – but add to those the proposal that the Federal Government will over-ride its own Federal laws, State and Territory laws, and foist on an unwilling Northern Territory a nuclear waste dump. The Radioactive Waste Management Bill 2005 whizzed through Reps on November 2 and the Senate on November 7.

For eight years the South Australian Government resisted the Federal Government’s bullying – and they won! So, the same national waste dump, which is mainly needed to get rid of nuclear waste from the Lucas Heights research reactor (being expanded against the wishes of the local community, for no good reason) will be built at a site of the Federal Government’s choosing in the Northern Territory. Once there, it’s not hard to imagine it being expanded to allow foreign radioactive waste to be added to the dump. There’s lots of money in it! And as some conveniently argue, if we mine uranium and export it, we have a responsibility to take back the waste. That’s a good argument for not exporting any more, I say.

The big push for nuclear power is an international effort by this insidious industry to position itself to profit from the fears about global warming. It is not a good solution! (See Dr Jim Green’s September 2005 paper: "Nuclear Power: no solution to climate change" on either the ACF, Friends of the Earth or Greenpeace websites).

This legislation is largely being ignored because, understandably, the other two areas are of such huge community concern. But as we argue for our civil liberties and workers’ rights, let’s include this nuclear scenario as well. It has grave consequences for our civil liberties and workers’ rights (and health, for a future longer than most of us can contemplate) as well.

The situation in Australian politics is worse than most of us can remember – very similar to the way Hitler got control of the German Government in 1933, and pushed “reforms” through the government to “protect the people”!

With control of the Senate (and we must all take some blame for that) Howard is moving quickly to get repressive legislation in place, to our long-term detriment.

I believe that Australians should consider a national day of noncompliance – a refusal to participate in business as usual. Not show up for work. Not do the usual shopping. A day of national reflection on where this country is heading with these dreadful laws being rushed through both Houses of Parliament. Our precious Parliament is being treated with contempt by this Government. It’s in a precarious position. Our cherished institutions are on a slippery slope towards fascism. Finally people are waking up to this unsavoury fact.

We need to act fast.

At the rallies and meetings being planned for early November, I’m suggesting that this idea of National Noncompliance Day be put forward. Let’s see if Australians can act together to defend our democracy, before it’s too late.

Training in nonviolence is a crucial step in advocating active resistance to laws such as the Howard Government is imposing on Australians. We can move forward as a community, with courage, if we have confidence in training and in standing together. Separately, people feel disempowered. Building solidarity between people and communities can help undermine the Government’s agenda. Do we have the wit and will to take them on?

Margo: Hi Jo, and welcome to Webdiary. Hope to catch up next time I'm in Perth.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

The rose-coloured specs were thrown away a long time ago Micheal to be replaced by the more appropriately coloured blood red cynical. As Howard said today, these raids were led by ASIO and the AFP,and as Andrew Gill so "conveniently" left off the last two of my original questions I think they still stand. Are the security forces (that's ASIO and the AFP) of this country so lax that television and other journalists are able to "listen in" on their communications between either themselves or the NSW police? They can't be as stupid as is implied that they'd use the same frequencies when going to arrest suspected terrorists as the NSW police would when talking of "trafic snarls" surely? It sounds absurd, but how else to explain the presence of camera toting TV crews at the scenes of these raids and arrests? That the PM knew they were coming is a given, that anyone else outside our security establishments had any idea whatsoever is outrageous.

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Russell Darroch: "PS And yes, you both successfully wind a lot of people up but that is also getting boring beyond belief, having watched you both do it for months. Not really very helpful, productive, or mature".

"Wind a lot of people up" What? are you joking?

Australia now has a person in custody that allegedly wishes to be Australia's first suicide bomber. This allegation was raised by Labor (Left) Premiers.

Give me a break. One week ago Webdiary was filled with people saying things like this were an invention. Wipe the egg from your face and be thankful you have a Government and police force that care about your well being.

Wind people up indeed!

re: Anti-terrorism laws - links update #13

Michael de Angelos, I would say that those people wanting to murder civilians (for that is basically the end point of terrorism) are just looking for a cause. If it wasn't for Iraq, it would be Afghanistan. Or Palestine. Or US involvement in the ME. Or 'cultural domination'. Or the fact that they don't have a job. Or the fact that their particular social/religious leaders want change to their own warped point of view, and are willing to tell their followers to fight and/or die for it.

These type of people have been used for causes all over the world. Think of the communist groups working hand in hand with Islamicists in the Bekka Valley for decades. A cause is a cause. These people hold a 'general grievance' - as in nothing has really happened to them or to anyone they know, but they use it as an excuse/crutch.

Some may have genuine grievances (as in have been personally affected by some violent/traumatic experience at the hands they are trying to strike at) but murdering civilians deliberately in cold blood is never an answer, and should not be justified by whatever experience they have suffered. And before someone gets onto Iraqi civilians being deliberately targeted by Coalition forces, I would like to see some independent sources on that. Margo: The Abu Grahib scandal, Stuart - civilians hauled off the streets at random and tortured.

Why? Because so many who say these things turn out to be blatant liars (especially about his former comrades actions), like Staff Sgt. Jimmy Massey - read about it here. Or complete and utter frauds like Micah Wright. Or just plain idiot moonbats, like Eason Jordan.

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
© 2005-2011, Webdiary Pty Ltd
Disclaimer: This site is home to many debates, and the views expressed on this site are not necessarily those of the site editors.
Contributors submit comments on their own responsibility: if you believe that a comment is incorrect or offensive in any way,
please submit a comment to that effect and we will make corrections or deletions as necessary.
Margo Kingston Photo © Elaine Campaner

Recent Comments

David Roffey: {whimper} in Not with a bang ... 13 weeks 3 days ago
Jenny Hume: So long mate in Not with a bang ... 13 weeks 4 days ago
Fiona Reynolds: Reds (under beds?) in Not with a bang ... 13 weeks 6 days ago
Justin Obodie: Why not, with a bang? in Not with a bang ... 13 weeks 6 days ago
Fiona Reynolds: Dear Albatross in Not with a bang ... 13 weeks 6 days ago
Michael Talbot-Wilson: Good luck in Not with a bang ... 13 weeks 6 days ago
Fiona Reynolds: Goodnight and good luck in Not with a bang ... 14 weeks 20 hours ago
Margo Kingston: bye, babe in Not with a bang ... 14 weeks 4 days ago