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Nothing is as clear cut as you imagine...
G'Day. Craig Warton has been a regular Webdiarist since the last federal election. This is his debut piece for Webdiary. Thank you, Craig. Great piece! Maybe I could resurrect the BLANK experiment of late last year.
Who I am
by Craig Warton
When I
posted a comment recently about the standard of Webdiary Margo made the
comment that I could always go elsewhere and I was welcome to contribute.
To take the
first point – why should I go elsewhere? Surely to feel that this forum should
have open slather on all yet be immune from the same is hypocritical? Well I
happen to think it is, and several other “right wingers” or “Howard Lovers”, as
we are perceived to be, have made the same comment.
This is a matter that should concern all who contribute to or read Webdiary. Much has been written about the partisan politics displayed in the “mainstream” media, or the abusive nature of several blogs. I have had a look at the blog frequently mentioned on here and that was a one off event. Thanks but no thanks; I don’t need to read pages of abuse. The problem is the tone of Webdiary of late though. It reads the same, but from the other end of the political spectrum. Is that all to expect and hope for from this forum?
There is a quote from a German philosopher that is repeated ad naseum here, and I
am sure you know the one I mean. The first they came for….. etc. Let me quote
another truism for all on here. “It is hard to soar like an eagle when you fly
with turkeys”. Do you want Webdiary to be an eagle or a turkey? I want an eagle! I want an alternative venue
that is open to all thoughts and that doesn’t howl people down because they go
against the status quo. A forum that isn’t full of clichés – from either side
of the political fence.
One of the
most over used terms on Webdiary is left wing and right wing and apparently I
am a right winger. This is news to me as I had never really considered where I
am. My family is just one of your average families. Well I thought we were at
any rate. The title of this piece is who I am, so now I will tell you more
about both myself and my family and you can decide if I am left or right or
what I actually am.
I am 41
years old and currently employed as Production Manager for “a large American
Multinational”, my wife Joeann is 42 and works as a Dental Nurse. We have two
children, a daughter aged 14 and a son aged 13. One goes to a private girls school (work out which!), while the
other is a student at a selective high school. As I mentioned, we live in the
Campbelltown area.
We all like
animals, and we have a dog (Dalmatian) and four cats. The cats all live indoors
and go out under supervision. I can’t abide letting cats run around killing all
and sundry. We also have tropical fish. If anyone suspects I like animals they
are right. I don’t even kill spiders, I take them outside to let go. Obviously
the rest of my family think I am a little crazy in this respect, but they
always call me to save them anyway.
I have
several hobbies, my main one being railway modeling. I model the Great Western
Railway in 4mm scale to P4 standards. I put that in because I discovered by
chance that one other member of my group also contributes on here, and was very
involved in several of the recent threads about creationism and science! My
other main hobby is a interest WW2 German ground forces. This includes building
models as well as study of the aspects that interest me. I get very particular
when I see references to SS units on here and people get designations or
details wrong. That might sound pedantic, but if the basics are not right what
are the odds for the other things?
My library
of books is another thing I love, mainly railways and military related in line
with my interests, I also have a large selection of historical photo albums of
Australian life; I love Max Dupain's photography and Ansell Adams stirs my soul
and makes me wish I would spend some time doing black and white photography
I also like
art, though my own preferences in painting tend towards the well known 19th
century Australian artists. I can look at most things and an art gallery will
keep me amused for hours.
I like eating, anything that can’t get away is fair game. The people who work for me are from many nationalities and we have a bit of a game that has gone on over the last few years. They try to find things I will not eat. Naturally I cannot let them win, though the dried, curried squid was a close call. I took it home and it stank the house out.
I also have a casual interest in Rugby league and cricket. I support Cronulla as I grew up in “the shire” and I still call them Cronulla because I dislike the changes that Super League inflicted on the game. My second team is Wests Tigers, and I go to quite a few of the home games with my son. I don’t mind the odd beer either, and have grown more partial to it as I have (ahem) aged. I also like wine and spirits.
I can listen to most types of music, though I still tend
towards the punk I grew up with in the late 70s and early 80s. I still like the
punkish bands around now, and share CDs with my children. They in turn raid my
collection and have introduced their friends to things like The Smiths and The
Cure. We are all going to the Greenday concert in December, provided my company
does not send me overseas again.
I am not
religious. Don’t call me an atheist or agnostic, I won't let you put me in your
of your religious categories. I happily talk to any religions that come to my
front door. They find my acceptance of death rather hard to grasp. Enjoy what
you have now people, after this you are compost.
Obviously,
I am interested in politics otherwise it is unlikely I would read Webdiary. I
think I caught that from my mother. So where do I stand politically? I don’t
think it is possible to outline everything I think or my opinions, so I will go
through a few of my thoughts on things that crop up regularly in this forum.
Refugees: I
support mandatory detention, until it is determined that a person is a refugee.
By the same token, it should not be unlimited or open slather. There should be
a set period. I am worried by people smuggling and I find this very disturbing,
as I do the fact that people magically hop through several countries and appear
here. It smacks of large scale corruption and prejudice and not only here. DIMIA
is a mess, like many things that government does it can and should be run
better.
Telstra: I have no problem with the sale of Telstra.
Many people seem to have a romantic notion that this company is something
special because “we” own it. It isn’t. They rip us off blindly when they can,
and delay the introduction of new technology as long as they can so they can
rip us off as long as possible. People in the outer suburbs of cities pay STD
rates to call the city centre. My family pays STD rates to call me at work – a
32 km drive. We use our Orange mobiles to call each other, they are free for
the first five minutes. I look forward
to the day when I can avoid paying Telstra a single cent.
Medicare: Free universal health care is a wonderful
notion, if only it wasn’t so expensive. I am puzzled by the notion that water
and petrol should be more expensive to discourage use, but we persist with the
idea of free health care. Despite the protestations of some, it does need
fixing and throwing more money into the hole will not fix it. By the same
token, dental care should be included in Medicare. I believe in being
responsible for myself, so we have private health insurance. At least if we
want something done we can get it done in a private hospital quickly. If more
people thought the same it might even cut the waiting lists a bit, thus making
the services available to those who cannot afford private insurance. They are
the people Medicare should be looking after.
Government allowances: By this I mean the dole and all
the other things the government provides. These are essential, we should be
supporting and assisting people who require this. I don’t see a problem with
some work for the dole, to me it would be better than sitting at home going
crazy, but that is just my thought. There are a lot of unemployed, disability
pension and the mythical single mothers in my area. I don’t have a problem with
payments for the single mothers, nor the genuine cases in the other two
categories. I have no tolerance for the fraud cases in the other categories.
But I would sooner support them than have no system. I just don’t understand
why they would choose to live on so little.
Conspiracy theories: Webdiary abounds with these. I do
not understand how we can go on for page after page about how stupid the USA
has been and think they have the ability to do some of these things. Americans
can’t keep quiet at the best of times, yet no one speaks for over 4 years after
flying radio control planes into the WTC? Sorry, I think it is silly and people
who worry about that need to walk away from the PC occasionally.
Iraq: Sorry to say, I don’t get worked up by the
notion that a government lied or was liberal with the truth on WMD. All
politicians of all persuasions are loose or vague when it suits. Similarly I
don’t go for the great neocon conspiracy stuff. Saddam was thumbing his nose at
the UN and the US for a very long time. It was going to wear thin on the US at
least at some point. The UN seemed more inclined to keep on doing what ever they
had been doing…. for ever. I think that’s the European influence. The Europeans
love bureaucracy, and procedures and process. The US doesn’t think long enough.
A far better approach would have been some where in between, preferably
removing Saddam in the process. I don’t like the US meddling in other countries,
in the same way I didn’t like the USSR doing it. Webdiary seems rather silent
on the actions of the USSR after WW2 in the Eastern bloc countries while
railing against the US in Vietnam. I smell a touch of hypocrisy myself.
Although I
am uncertain about the process of getting there, the simple fact is that we are
there. We now have an obligation to rebuild the country. There is much talk
about the separation of church and state in these parts, yet many seem to be
quite content at the idea of a religious fundamentalist group (ie the
resistance) gaining control. Killing of civilians is wrong, and that is
regardless of it is by missile or car bomb. It’s a bit like lynching and
bombing really. Different process same result.
The environment: I do care about the environment, but my stance
is tempered with reality. Some things are critical – fixing the damage to the
Murray River system is one of them as is halting – and reversing - land clearing.
Improving Public Transport is a great idea too, but how do you do it? I can
only really speak of Sydney, but one of the major problems with our railway
system is that all the lines converge to Central Sydney because that is where
they grew out from starting in 1855. In the meantime, work patterns have
changed and far more people go across the city than was ever imagined 100 years
ago. How do you fix this? The predilection of the NSW Government for announcing
new railways and then doing nothing suggests they don’t know how. Longer trains
are needed – probably 10 cars at least. Now imagine rebuilding all the stations
– including the underground. As well as that the electrical system as it probably
couldn’t handle it. Do we all have deep pockets?
Of course
there is also the matter of coal fired power stations, isn’t there?
We have
just installed solar hot water and are getting a water tank so that is a start,
but I suspect there is much more that will need to be done. At least the rise
in the price of petrol has seemingly reversed the exodus from public transport.
In addition we may see even more small cars and maybe even the extinction of
those wretched city 4WDs (I can hope).
This is
only a smattering of thoughts on various things, some clear and some not. Many
are probably inconsistent – I’m only human after all.
I have voted Liberal since 1996. I voted for the ALP before that but the Keating “true believer” election was the one that did it for me. Following that election, all that it seemed the ALP was concerned with was how to win the next election. They had simply run out of steam and ideas.
Sadly for us they have not got it
back yet. I know the Left is often touted as the “progressive” side of
politics, but what exactly is progressive about wanting to revert back to a variety
of schemes that were implemented 30 years ago? That is ideological stagnation. Nothing
is free about free education, health care or a myriad of other things. The
money comes from some where – you and me. I expect that what is taken out is
efficiently handled and distributed not sucked up in a maze of Government that
exists just because.
If the ALP
does eventually work out where it is going I may vote for them again. But for a
start they need to distance themselves from the unions and be seen to be independent.
Yes, the Liberals have connections to the “big end” of town, but how many
Liberal members have been given preselection to a safe seat because they sat
on the board of a company? At the moment the ALP does not seem to be cohesive
or have direction. Every time they have lost there is an excuse. Stop making
excuses and start trying to make an alternative government – one that appeals
to the majority of Australians.
I decided
to contribute this because I firmly believe that too much on Webdiary is from
the extremes of both ends. I am a Liberal voter. I am not religious, I am not a
neocon and I am not racist. I happen to think that things are never as clear
cut as you imagine, and nothing is black and white.
I like Webdiary, and I am not planning on going. I am doing this because I dislike the
idea of it being hijacked (and destroyed) by extremists of any kind. My family
thinks we are middle of the road, and our friends seem much the same as us.
So what am I?
*
Margo, Tuesday, September 27: This is the exchange between Craig and I which he refers to in his piece. It is published in comments to Howard's 'World Statesman Award': on what criteria, please, New York's 'Appeal of Conscience Foundation'?
Dear Margo, I read with great deal of interest the comments by Jay White on this thread. They perfectly sum up my own feelings and impressions about the current state of Webdiary. Where for example are comments on the by elections in NSW, the disgusting remarks by Frank Sartor or the increases in the use of public transport?
Not a peep. Instead we must suffer the constant stream of abusive from your resident self styled 'radical leftist' academic. I am, of course, referring to Damian Lataan. No one else on here seems to be able to get away with posting conspiracy theories and providing no credible sources. I would remind this person that "what really happened.com" is hardly a primary source, with its fixatation (that he seems to share) on Jews being at the root of all conspiracies. When challenged he continually has the hide to say 'you prove me wrong'. I would remind all readers that if you challenge an accepted fact the onus is on you to prove the fact wrong and that your case is correct.
The constant stream of 'lying tyrant, USA terrorists' and sundry other quotes makes it appear that he learned to write at the Tokyo Rose School of journalism, or maybe it was the Lord Haw Haw school.
Margo, unless you take steps to reign in people like this Webdiary will self destruct. I sincerely hope that an effort will be made so this site becomes the fair and balanced place it should be. Decrying media domination by positioning yourself at the other end of the political spectrum is not reducing domination. Most importantly it is nether fair nor balanced.
Margo: Hi Craig, and thank you for coming across to the independent Webdiary. You say Webdiary is not covering every big story around. True, but it never has. For nearly 5 years Webdiary was a one woman operation. After the changeover to the new publishing system last September, the ever increasing number of Webdiarist's comments bogged me down in editing them. Now I'm independent, and am paying Hamish Alcorn and Kerri Browne to work full time on editing comments, publishing pieces, and co-ordinating the technical development of the permanent site. I have dreams of being able to cover big stories in every State, but they're dreams for now, Craig. Feel like helping make my dream come true? If you'd like to help, in any way you want, email me.
On the other matter you raise, comments editing is full on, Craig, and is absolutely punishing on anyone who does the job for more than a few weeks. Yes, mistakes are made, but we're trying always to get consistency in editing. I made and announced an editorial policy decision on content this week, that no comment questioning the fact of the holocaust would be posted. I'll make more editorial policy decisions as issues arise, and on the permanent site these will be listed, along with the date they are made.
Craig, I reckon you've always got a fair run from me. If you don't respect my editing of Webdiary, or of your work, or both, there are many other places to go. I hope you keep contributing here, and I hope to visit your workplace for a tour when mutally convenient. Webdiary has always been and will always be a work in progress. Webdiarists' critiques and suggestions are welcomed by me. I stand on my record as editor of Webdiary for more than five years. It's there for all to see. Your call, Craig.
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re: Nothing is as clear cut as you imagine...
Sorry for not replying before Kevin, I actually missed your post. Thank you to Martin for pointing it out to me. I said I consider myself average Kevin, I never said I was an average Australian. Do you think you are?
Of course the language I use and the way I write frames my beliefs. I would venture to suggest your response indicates exactly the same thing. I didn’t say I was dispassionate; I merely stated my views and tried to present them in a non abusive way. Have a look at some of the responses on here (Danny Jackson as an example) and tell me who is being abusive or using rhetoric. Even the phrases you put in as a counterpoint to mine are framed in a certain way – they are scarcely neutral. Again, that is only my opinion which I am sure some will disagree. I am equally certain though that others will agree with me.
Yes I believe my opinions on the environment are tinged with reality, and I don’t think some of the environmental groups and environmental political groups have displayed sufficient reality. Its great to say glib statements like we need to fix the Murray Darling basin, improve public transport or encourage the use of solar. The trouble is that the means that is talked about is usually a tax on fossil fuel use – and who does this hurt most? The very low income people that so many profess concern for.
Buy an electric car? That is great if you can afford one (seen the cost of a Prius?) I am all for improving public transport, I happen to like railways and trams, but how and what? The example of someone strapping themselves to a tree is a poor example, it is an action that in the long run will do nothing to address any of the issues I just raised. That is what I mean by reality.
Telstra should not be acting as a monopoly Kevin, for up until 1996 it was Government owned. It was engaging in the behaviour I mentioned before then. At least now we have alternatives to them. Good riddance.
Don’t you see the irony here Kevin? You have framed your own reply to me in exactly the manner you stated I was. You are expressing an opinion. Just like me. I was not arguing a point, nor presenting a case, just stating my opinion
regards,
Craig
re: Nothing is as clear cut as you imagine...
Craig Warton, Kevin De Bonis gave an excellent critique of your article link here
I think it deserves a reply.
Generally, if you want others to read and respond to your articles, you should read and respond to their comments, especially if they make good points.
re: Nothing is as clear cut as you imagine...
Gareth Eastwood, the Defence White Paper you refer to was written for a right-wing government that doesn’t mind invading other countries and killing its innocent civilians and causing civil wars. Of course I disagree with it just as I would expect you, being a right-winger, to go mindlessly along with it seeing non-existent enemies over every horizon. What exactly are you afraid of? Has Howard got you so addicted to fear that you are willing to spend inordinate amounts of money on stuff that is totally unnecessary and that will only end up lining the pockets of the arms industry?
Respond on Monday if you want, I’m off for the weekend.
re: Nothing is as clear cut as you imagine...
Damian Lataan, well there you go again, once you realise you have no argument, you resort to questioning the source (I can think of no better source on Australian military matters than the ADF) and then take a personal swipe at my ability to produce an argument. Wow Damian, it must be great being in possession of such infinite wisdom.
You're next step is usually to say that you no longer wish to argue (i.e. you admit defeat) the issue because I don't know what I'm talking about. I look forward to that response.
re: Nothing is as clear cut as you imagine...
Hey Dee Bayliss, you are on the ball again.
Remember the first time Muggins heard about this West New Guinea Irian Jaya, was as a little kid, circa 1960.
Something about "Congulist gorrillas", or something; little kids hear things that sound very strange and silly and telly was very new back in those days.
re: Nothing is as clear cut as you imagine...
E Burrows ask yourself why Papua New Guinea and West Papua are not now one nation? Ethnically they should be.
I would say a bit more to do with Cold War post-colonial horse-trading wouldn't you?
re: Nothing is as clear cut as you imagine...
Damian Lataan wrote "You still live in the past where the hordes to the north of us were always the White Australian’s fear. Those days are long gone. All China and Indonesia want to do is trade. Not steal."
I suspected some East Timorese and West Papuans would disagree with you.
re: Nothing is as clear cut as you imagine...
No, I'll let it rest. I hear recruitments are down, I wouldn't want to give the government any ideas.
re: Nothing is as clear cut as you imagine...
I'm with the Ed.
Unless you want to open up the conscription debate - do you youngsters no end of good - as long as we didn't let you into the armed forces that is.
re: Nothing is as clear cut as you imagine...
Malcolm , I was wondering where you fitted in to the whole Vietnam episode. If you started in '75 you couldn't have been conscripted, or served there. You were a psychologist? Did you work with returned Serviceman?
I'm curious about your views on conscription, since you made a comment (possibly in jest) on my thread about bringing it back.
Terrence Ed. Solomon, perhaps some of this, could be more suited to email
re: Nothing is as clear cut as you imagine...
Paul I have possibly what is a controversial theory on why PNG was carved up the way it was instead of gradually becoming a federation with semi-autonomous regional democratic governments based on linguistic and tribal connections. That would have made sense when you think about the turmoil that has been PNG ever since independence.
A large, resource-rich and potentially powerful Melanesian state would have been viewed as a potential regional danger by the US and Europe at the time. They were fixated on the idea that such a state could well become either a dictatorship (Communist or otherwise) or a focus for Melanesian discontent in the rest of the Pacific, particularly in areas where the US had strategic interests. There was a small but active Communist opposition in the newly independent Indonesia and Communist guerrilla activity in Malaysia, as well as movements in nearby South East Asia. So what better way to ensure regional security than by carving up the Melanesian giant into an Australian sphere of influence where Australian mining companies would be allowed to play (Australia being Washington's "deputy sheriff" long before Howard's time) plus a handover of the old Dutch New Guinea colony as a sop to Sukarno, who regarded it as a part of the old Javanese suzerainty and who was getting very dangerously up close and personal with the Communists.
New Internationalist which seems to be the only Western publication with a continuing interest in Melanesia has a number of good articles including:
Uninvited guests (1981)
More powerful than guns (1997)
They walk on the leaves of trees (2002)
Diplomacy knives West Papua (2003)
and this article which details the unusual relationship between West Papua and the multinationals.
re: Nothing is as clear cut as you imagine...
Craig, I read your piece just now. It's a good story. Just a couple of comments. You have some very specific ideas about asylum seekers but I would be more convinced of your even-handedness if 'DIMIA is a mess' was expanded with positive ideas on how we fix it and a comment about ministerial responsibility.
Like me, you are middle-class with a comfortable life. We share little with those who live close to the bread-line and for whom the idea of paying for private health insurance is ridiculously out of reach.
If people are not to be considered disposable resources that we can just churn then the good health of all Australians needs a more considered response. Think of them as spiders.
re: Nothing is as clear cut as you imagine...
I'm posting if it's relevant to the 'issue'. I wanted to say hi to, Dee, to get something across, however obliquely. Believe me there is much, especially revolving around the migration litigation act, the university system and Malcolm and Jenny Stirling that I have to say but I'm keeping tight-lipped.
Dee, no, I haven't. I remember nothing of it. Too young. Grew up with lots of stories - pictures, books, - though. I do want to go there to work, some time, in the future. I'd love to work as a diplomat.
There is a "Free West Papua" website, if you look hard enough. Their flag resembles the Cuban flag, but with more red and white stripes. Perhaps webdiary could build ties with them.
What was it Keating said? "I will make this my Vietnam."
Curdles the blood.
re: Nothing is as clear cut as you imagine...
Solomon Wakeling, good to read you again. I second John Henry Calvinist's request for a column regarding the world's largest island. (Dear Editors, this is clearly an issue that deserves its own thread, tho' I'm sure you are all aware of that!)
In so doing, could you (or the eventual columnist) address the thorny question of whether Gough Whitlam was entirely wise in conferring independence when he did? Hate to sound like the last of the great white mothers, but even back then, when I was a callow miss, it seemed to me to be a tad imprudent. Events since then to some extent speak for themselves.
And that doesn't even begin to take account of the stupid decision regarding "West Irian" - one of my earliest memories of non-Oz politics (apart from the illness - in 1958, I think - of someone who I thought was President Icing Sugar).
re: Nothing is as clear cut as you imagine...
Welcome back Solomon. Have you ever been back to PNG?
re: Nothing is as clear cut as you imagine...
Is this the same Solomon Wakeling who deserted us only so recently?
Is it that you have come back because you do not have the courage of your convictions, or simply that you lack courage entirely?
Like the Dinsdale Brothers, the Sydney Bar was ever "cruel but fair".
re: Nothing is as clear cut as you imagine...
Solomon...welcome back! Having just had a (lengthy) discussion with Kerri re a column of mine, I can assure you that the editors are all as unhappy with Noelene's 'exclusion' as you are. But, it's her decision to refuse to follow the rules...
Now...would you like to contribute a column on the Papuan issue? Because, I'm sure the editors - and the rest of the readership - would welcome such.
all the best
re: Nothing is as clear cut as you imagine...
I'm a pikininni (by virtue of my birthplace), Dee. I used to have "Free West Papua" written on my pencil case in High School. My name is derived from the word "peace". Draw your own conclusions.
re: Nothing is as clear cut as you imagine...
JHC if only Margo could nab a retired diplomat with experience in Papua New Guinea, or better still a PNGuinean to write an article.
Or maybe even Andrew Peacock who brokered the transition to independence from the Australian side. I do not think Peacock is quite the dilettante lightweight he looked for a lot of his time in politics. He certainly would have been a more human PM than the Naked Mannequin.
In related matters Hugh White foreshadows the introduction of limited-tenure work visas for citizens of Pacific countries. A good idea in principle as far as addressing the employment crisis in some Pacific nations and ensuring much-needed foreign exchange to boost struggling local economies, but at the same time, if not properly monitored, an opportunity for the shonky entrepreneurial class and plantation bosses in Australia to use IR changes to further undercut working conditions.
Who said "blackbirding" stopped at the beginning of the 20th Century?
re: Nothing is as clear cut as you imagine...
Dee Bayliss, I'd have to say that your speculations make perfect sense re the cold war 'realpolitic' of the era. Similarly, I feel that your implicit model here - "a federation with semi-autonomous regional democratic governments based on linguistic and tribal connections" - is the only feasible one re effective governance - albeit the 'federalism' projected is (to be workable) probably very different in form from that which currently suffices (however imperfectly) in Western democracies.
But, it's also (probably) the best model for most of Africa - as well as substantial areas of Asia and South America - and, the failure to seriously address such a model is (perhaps) the key reproach one could level at academic political 'science' over the last half-century, given that this (self-evident) failure has directly contributed to the deaths of millions - not to mention the impoverishment of billions of human beings.
Now, given that Australia's (extra-territorial) colonial legacy is dominated by the PNG, and that most Australian citizens are shamefully ignorant of the overall questions here - not to mention the facts re the Western region - I'd like to issue a call to all those Webdiarists that have some genuine knowlege in this area to start writing columns that help address the mess that both sectors of said island are in.
Because, we (through our elected representatives) built the system that has so evidently failed in the East. And, as well, we allowed the West to become the plaything of a culturally/ethnically very different society... so opening the way for the appalling crimes - and nigh-on genocide in the highlands - that has characterized Indonesian 'rule' there.
It's about time that the Australian citizenry faced up to these facts and - however belatedly - made some serious attempts to think through the problems involved, and help to develop some workable solutions.
Because, sadly, there'll probably be nothing effective done, if we don't rouse ourselves to seriously aid it.
All the best.
re: Nothing is as clear cut as you imagine...
Hey dad found your Webdiary and I have one thing to say:
The major problem with all posts and all humans is that they are biased and that is the problem with all arguments. A prime example is Iraq. Did we save the country from a tyrannical dictator, finish off something we should have done ages ago, invaded to get oil or ruthlessly invade to expand our presence around the world?
Or terrorists - are they actually freedom fighters; poeple trying to free their country or are they just killing for the sake of causing casualties?
re: Nothing is as clear cut as you imagine...
I really wonder if anyone is logically thinking out the reality of the bathtub toy scenario?
Free West Papua? Keep East Timor Free?
Indonesia has just been on a shopping spree after Bali spending about 6 billion, from memory, on the latest hardware, including attack helicopters, f16s, and tanks. Why tanks? Worry if they also had the means to move them across straits.
300 million are a lot of people, especially when angry, as they were in 1999 when our embassy was "invaded" and the flag taken and burnt. I wonder just how close to war we may have been then. The US backed both sides at that time with interests in Indonesia and here in the ever essential tracking stations we have.
I read that the last Iraq war was won by the superior airpower, indeed the Iraqi air fleet stayed under nets, nice payout there for someone. In the First Iraq war they flew into Iran to be parked.The unchallenged airpower allowed US bombing and destruction wihtout check yet... has not enabled the peace to be won.
The US air command have stated the next war will be fought in space, but that may be just to get the gov to pay for that investment to the military money machine. Satellites do control the precision missiles and missile defence scam so would be the likely first target in a real war, bleeeeeep, out and gone.
Really, unless you are intending ethnic cleansing and genocide or enslavement there is no need for war as proper economic action tightly done by all will take out any one, with the right rewards too for leaving. The arms companies don't want that.
The reason to avoid war is that occupation is so destructive to the occupier and the hate is propagated so that the peace is never won in that generation. It took a generation of reeducation of Japanese and German children, deliberately removing the militarism from their culture and schooling. Is it a coincidence that the youth of these two populations are some of the most empathic and peace loving?
Now that is changing sadly, as the US wants Japan to spend on military.
It is sad that our once powerful ally has squandered so much, including international integrity by taking the bait and ignoring the warnings. It is no coincidence the shape of Iraq now, nor what happened when Saddam fell. The dividing off of the necons to their different interest groups now the common enemy was gone. Some want the stable US client state, some want it to divide, some I am not sure, but seem to want to repel the occupation at any price and some seem to deal with Iran and neighbours.
Trouble is, for us, that pax America requires the US to succeed and stay strong. Otherwise another ruling with occur and we may not be the deputy sheriff. What if Indonesia was the deputy sheriff for China? Far fetched? Then why are Chinese naval bases being setting up there, "to prevent US blockade should the Taiwan issue come to a head"? There won't be any head, just kaboom. No, the bases mean the beginnings of hegemony in our region. What if Chinese land was no longer fit for habitation?
Chinese navy do have means of transporting tanks.
By what right do we sit upon the riches here that we do? The mineral, gas, farming, living space, and easiest access to Antarctica's wealth, that is now top secret?
By what right?
All your little war games with rubber duckies will mean nothing with Indonesia/China asking that question.
Only Nukes would be a deterrent and the subs to guarantee return strike. Only satellite control to guide them and any other missiles. Only bio threat with ethnic targeting as a back up. Would we really ever use such?
I loved the Yes Prime Minister episode when they were discussing Trident. Did anyone see it? Worth its weight in plutonium for all to see.
There is no point in having a real nuclear deterent as one could never use it or the response would wipe out the planet. But if the enemy thought one had it and the capability of return strike then the aim is achieved.
So, we have a double agent run off to the Murdoch media and then get kidnapped back, a la Vanunu, and have him claim we have 200 nukes, been testing them all this time in our desert near our radioactive dump site Bob wants. And our subs are circling perpetually. Pariah Australia but who would dare attack?
For just the price of a two minute commercial we have everyone too scared to ever call our bluff and we can dump the rest of the offence force and spend the 20billion a year (including the 8 billion perpetual black hole) on educating our people and rehabilitating our land and buying up everyone else's governments. Making a real paradise on earth that noone dares try to take. My idealism would want us to make others' lives more happy too and save the whales (affinity there) and the ozone and make lots of advances on energy alternatives with all that money.
Maybe even charge the yanks big bucks for using our sites for tracking stations just as they charged us big bucks for dropping their f'kin bombs on kids.
I guess I find the threat of using nukes far less than using biowarfare and nanowarfare. As long as they are big and destroy the planet no one will use them except as bluff.
Boys and their toys; Stuart sounds like he is playing in his bath tub with all that expensive useless mutilating rubbish.
Malcolm is essentially right if logic ruled. Then again Bluff is an alternative and so very economical.
Do you know, I read that the codes for the minute men were such a hassle to keep changing that in the end they just left them at 000000000000 all the time. I also read there were eight false alarms in the Cold War... why did we risk all that?
Just another direction altogether...
Maybe we would be better just to accept that, like the Egyptian pharoahs, the phenotype of a population changes and will fighting stop that? Or will it just make survival harder under a new ruler? Does it really matter which elite are at the top? The scum always float there in any society. Smart conquerors leave the infrastructure and just tax heavily. It will be no different for most. I bet we would want our daughters in Purdah for their protection.
There is a lot of wisdom in Sun Tzu and the Art of War. Never fight if you cannot win.
Nihowma?
Just practicing.