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Four Corners report on Indonesian slaughter of our cattle

While I gave up blogging some years ago I did not give up fighting against live exports.

Those of you who saw the 4 Corners shocking footage on how our animals are treated in Indonesia will have been just as distressed as I was.

In all my years of working in animal welfare I have never seen anything to equal that. If you did not see it then go to IView, or there is footage on our Animals Australia website. Just google it but be warned. It is more than shocking.

If you object to this treatment of cattle then please go to GetUp and sign the petition calling for the ending of live export of animals from Australia.



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Senator Back and our subsidy for truckie protest

Will we see Senator Back and Abbott and Truss on the floor of the house asking Julia Gillard to ensure the truckies converging on Canberra from all over Australia do not claim 15 cents a litre for the fuel they use to get here, in some case a trip of 6000 kms. They claim the protest is among other things about waste of taxpayers' money. Well what about this waste of what will be tens of thousands of dollars. Farmers can claim 38 cents a litre and they will undoubtedly fill up from their on farm subsidised supplies before they leave, and once on the road they too can claim the 15 cnets a litre.

Now this rebate is supposed to be for legitimate business use. No other protest group has the capacity to claim tax payer subsidy for their protest, so let us hear Abbott and co on this one. Pigs might fly of course.

We calculated that at about $400 a truck from WA will cost the taxpayer about $400 in subsidised fuel claims.  So hundreds of trucks, well work it out.

As for Back's questioning the integrity of Lyn White and Animals Australia, well not one shred of credible evidence can he produce. Surprise surprise. I note his brother works for the live export trade.

Spot on

What the whining truckies don't get is that they are part of the problem.

And so is the barbaric live trade.

Kosher slaughter

It was only a matter of time until this debate turned to the issue of domestic ritual slaughter; specifically the kosher and halah slaughter  in Australia of permitted species of birds and mammals. There are some fair enough questions I suppose since the RSPCA has focussed now on the matter of "stunning".

I am no expert on kosher slaughter to put it at its slightest and I know nothing at all about halah beyond that  the Koran expressly ordains kosher killed meat as halah. And as we are talking about the deliberate killing of sentient animals usually raised for the purpose the subject is distasteful at the best of times. I still haven't seen the

 Indonesian footage in full. I guess I never will. I don't need to.

This I do know. There's a lot of information out there for those interested. The proponents of kosher slaughter claim that when it is done right it is the most humane method of killing animals. The emphasis here is on when it is done right. It must be done by a trained expert and with deep religious respect for the lives he alone is licensed on behalf of the community to take. 

I accept without question these guys are experts. They have been doing it for a long time.

It's certainly a bloody affair. That's the point of a kosher kill I guess. To cut the carefully positioned animal with a large carefully designed and very very sharp knife in exactly the right way as to stun the creature by evacuating as much blood as quickly as possible and especially from the brain. Think firehose.The drop in blood pressure to the brain is instantaneous and with it, its proponents claim, any sensation including pain. Unconsciousness and death follow in seconds.  

The rabbis are adamant about pre-stunning. It's not on and don't try to change their minds. It's not necessary they will tell you. Kosher killing comes with stunning.

The argument that kosher killing is more humane than conventional first world abbattoirs, at least in the US, is based on research on failure rates. This is the percentage of animals that require a second, third or even more stuns. This failure rate can be 5% or more even in well run slaughter houses. With kosher killling the failure rate is tiny. 

The thing about stunning is central. It is all to do with the condition of the animal presented for slaughter. The prohibition that catches stun guns ensures that an injured animal, especially one subjected to terrible cruelty, can never be accepted for kosher slaughter. Those poor creatures in Indonesia would never have been accepted  by a shochet in a thousand years. Probably much longer, literally.

Which brings me to my next point. How is stunning suddenly central to what happened in Indonesia, let alone here? From what I saw those animals were being tortured before they were killed and there are plenty of people who  will contend that the torture began long before that, if not actually on our fair shores. I did not see the footage of the actual killing but I have no doubt it was cruel too. It usually is in those circumstances. Stunnng alone is not going to solve the problem I saw.

The kosher slaughter laws are founded in a religious and ethical respect for the lives of animals and ultimately for life itself; the central principle of Judaism. They evolved at a time of unspeakable cruelty. The specific prohibitions give some inkling of the horror of this.  But if the RSPCA wants to pick a fight with the original animal welfare ethicists then maybe it's time to once again focus on conventional abbattoirs especially the treatment of animals prior to slaughter while in holding and transport.

Consider for a moment the modern factory mass production of meat. Animals are raw materials to be grown, transported and processed as efficently as possible. Many of these animals, especially pigs, are known to be highly intelligent. They all experience emotion especially bonding and fear.. Do you seriously regard the treatment of those animals leading up to their slaughter as humane? Quite apart from the 5% failure rate with the stun gun.

At least the kosher laws acknowledge that these are living creatures we are talking about and  their lives began with their birth.  Not just commodities.  Those who have a problem with these laws should perhaps consider becoming vegetarians. I have no doubt many have. Many Jews have including many rabbis.

I have no idea by the way what this has to do with the export livestock trade and the treatment of Australian raised animals in foreign markets. Sounds to me this is a quick fix.  Stunning always has been. "Not to worry little ones -- they don't feel any pain ... ". Bullshit. With respect. If they could talk that's exactly what they would say. Define "pain".  This is bullshit even for the 95% when they get the stun right. 

Certainly this is a diversion from the appalling issue one animal welfare body so spectacularly brought to the attention of the Australian public. Why another animal welfare body would seek to divert focus from that has got me beat. Perhaps you should ask them?  Perhaps you should think twice before following their lead on this?

Perhaps you should ask PETA about their experience? Just a suggestion. My understanding is it accepts kosher slaughter is 'humane". Not bad for a militant animal welfare body. It's probably more than I would say. 

I'm full of suggestions. OK one last one. Pick your issues. One at a time. If you want to talk about the killing of animals for food as a subject then fine. Because that's the argument the RSPCA is buying for itself.  Maybe arrange for that fine lady to smuggle a camera into a kosher killing facility here? As I understand it that's what PETA did.

The question for other animal welfare bodies, especially Animals Australia, is this a diversion you need from the matter you raised?

Certainly the RSPCA seems to think it does.

Anyway as it stands I will be cancelling my RSPCA diary and pen sets this Christmas. Looks like 2012 will be the first RSPCA-free year around here for more than a decade.

[Richard/Fiona -- thanks for that edit button .... I think ... Perhaps grown to a thread leader?]

Restraint and Kosher

Hello Geoff.  You are quite right. The slaughter of any animal is never pretty and there have been failures in all methods for as long as I have been taking an interest in this subect. One of the animals that Animal Liberation found was most traumatised at the abattoirs was pigs. They are indeed very intelligent animals. One visit to an abattoir to see the pigs killed will cause anyone to stop eating the meat therefrom.

I stopped eating meat 25 years ago because of cruelty in the system of handling and killing.

Regarding Kosher slaughter. I do not believe any religion, be it Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Animist or any other should impose its rules on how another living sentient creature should die. And therefore I do not believe any being killed for our purpose, be it for meat, fur, leather or hide should suffer for our selfish beliefs.

Kosher slaugher first came to my attention when I was training meat inspectors while working in the Dept of Primary Industry. Some told me that to Kosher kill, the cattle were hoisted and shackled, ie shacked by the chains around the hind legs and then hoisted upside down in the air to allow the throat to be cut. I wrote many letters on this issue and was told sometime later the practice had been ceased .I sincerely hope so as the meat inspectors said that the effect of slinging a 600 kg beast up this way had the effect of injuring the animal in the spine and legs and was very cruel.

The problem is one of restraint. No large animal will not struggle as it is put in an unnatural position for the purpose of having its throat slashed no matter how deft the knifeman may be. That was the main cause of the cruelty to the cattle in Indonesial, plus the use of blunt knives leading to multiple slashing with some animals taking minutes to die.  Some of the worst footage was not show, deemed even more horrific to what we saw.

Hence I believe that he most humane method of slaughter must be the law in our society, no matter what. . There is simply no justification for an animal to have our religious beliefs imposed on it. We live in a secular state and religion must not be a consideration in law.

So forgive me but I will fight for stunning of all animals in meatworks. The Rabbi in the SMH claiming this is anti semitism is talking total nonsense. It is about religions, any religion being able to determine how an animal dies. And that as I said I think is wrong. This is a moral issue, not a religious one.

Of coure there are issues all over the world around killing animals for food. The horror suffered by cats and dogs in Asia beggars belief. Jut go to a dog and cat market and see them piled on top of each other in cages, and then in some countries beaten alive because pain causes the release of chemicals that soften the meat. I refuse to visit any country that eats dogs for that reason.

There are good people working in those countries trying to stop this cruelty and I am a part of that movement as well.  There is no excuse for cruelty to our fellow creatures on this earth.

Antisemitism and ignorance

Another thing. I don't read the SMH anymore but I was curious about the over-exuberant allegation of antisemitism you report.

The SMH quotes Rabbi Mordechai Gutnick as saying "calls to ban such practices were motivated in part by ignorance and anti-semitism."


As usual there's a history to this. For example the Nazis made great use of kosher slaughter to pave the way for the slaughter of the Jews.  For instance, the 1940 Nazi propaganda film, The Eternal Jew, shown everywhere the Nazis went, climaxes on the subject. Apparently literally:

Toward the end of the film, after showing how Jews have been responsible for the decline of Western music, science, art, and commerce, is a scene of a cow being slaughtered for meat by a shochet (Jewish ritual slaughter), which is prefaced by a warning similar to the one in Frankenstein, warning women, children, and the squeamish about the upcoming scene. This long scene, lasting several minutes, shows the cows and sheep in all their death throes as they bleed to death. The movie's creators apparently filmed this scene on the knowledge that Hitler was opposed to cruelty to animals and had banned kosher slaughter of animals in Germany, and that such footage would shock an audience that was sensitive to animals.

The film ends with Hitler (in a January 1939 public speech) explaining the problems of the Jewry in Europe and says: "If the international finance-Jewry inside and outside Europe should succeed in plunging the nations into a world war yet again, then the outcome will not be the victory of Jewry, but rather the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe!"

Jenny, I understand your sensitivity and ask you to be sensitive to the context of comments like this. This can never be picked up from a grab from a reporter's phonecall.


HI Geoff, unfortunately when it is a religious practice that is being judged by people not subscribing to that particular religion, then some adherents of that religion will choose to see that criticism as being born of prejudice against the religion and its followers. Hence allegations of anti semitism, anti islam, anti christianity are often retreated to as a means of avoiding the issue itself.

I won't go into the HItler quote. I don't doubt it for one minute..Mass murderers the world over will use, and have used any argument to justify the ends they seek. And they happily go home at the end of a day's work killing other peoples' children to cuddle and play with their own.

."..unfortunately when it

."..unfortunately when it is a religious practice that is being judged by people not subscribing to that particular religion, then some adherents of that religion will choose to see that criticism as being born of prejudice against the religion and its followers."


No no Jenny, I must protest. Didn't you see the nuance in the rabbi's comment? It's only in part driven by antisemitism. The other part is ignorance.

Sorry. My sense of humour. Plus keeping odd hours these days.

Meanwhile back in Indonesia ... Egypt ... Yemen ... Iran ...

Hi Jenny.

I've expanded that piece somewhat since this morning so it may be I have addressed some of your issues more fully retrospectively, if that makes sense.

As I understand it shackling and hoisting has at least indeed been an issue with kashrut authorities and others. There does appear to have been a lot of work done on this. The object I guess was to accelerate blood flow and to accommodate civil requirements but Injuring an animal in the way you describe is a serious breach of kosher rules in all Jewish denominations.

I'm not quite sure I understand your point about religion. The state has an interest in ensuring all killing methods are "humane" and supervised. In that sense religion is irrelevant. I agree there is no excuse for cruelty. Religion and other private ethical systems do not provide an excuse. On the other hand religion and ritual do not automatically render a practice civilly unacceptable either especially when they are founded in venerable and deeply held principles of respect for life.

Respect for life

HI Geoff, Respect for life I would think would preclude the killing of any living thing in a way that caused it pain and suffering and clearly ritual slaughter more often than not inflicts that pain and suffering.

Though I am a religious person I do not believe through my religion I have any right to determine how another living creature should die. We live in the 21st century and age old practices such as ritual slaughter have no place in the modern world. No offence to Judaism, Islam or any other religion.

I think Buddhism is the belief system that really has respect for life.

I have issues with one of the Protestant churches in this country for being involved in a battery hen business. The Christian churches take too literally their dominion over all the creatures on this earth. They are not known for their interest in issues of animal welfare from my experience. 

One card trick

Hi Jenny, you might not know I am not at all a religious person. I'm what some would call a "secular Jew" . That covers a multitude of sins but in my case it means I take almost no part in the practice of the religion. It's not that I am without spiritual belief. It's just that I am uncomfortable with ritual. Any kind of ritual.  I always have been. I guess that ruled out a religious life.

I agree with you only if it can be established that kosher ritual slaughter as it is practised in Australia now does in fact increase pain and suffering. I'm only talking about kosher (not halah -- they run their own race -- I mean a blunt knife for chrissake?). Also current practice. We can all talk about the past. Afterall how old is stunning?

 I'm less convinced now than ever. Turns out there doesn't seem to be an issue with cattle now at all because they do "stun" but not "pre -stun" and the "restraint" problem with the  chain and hoist was  a US health regulation across the industry from before stunning. Those links before indicate a lot of research on safe harnessing and keeping the animal calm.

So that covers cattle I think.

I don't think there's an issue with chickens and there certainly isn't an issue with pigs.

That leaves sheep.


But wasn't this thing about the live export of cattle and how they get treated in Indonesia? And for that matter live sheep and cattle in Indonesia, China, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Japan, Malaysia, Philippines, Bahrain, Kuwait,Qatar, Oman and United Arab Emirates?

So how has that matter been fixed? With the promise of a stun gun in every foreign abbattoir with the chicken in every pot? And a few snide comments from the livestock industry and the Fairfax press about the tiny domestic kosher sheep slaughter business?

Sorry to sound cynical but I reckon you're mob has been had.

It's business as usual and its big business at that.

Big business alright

Oh yes, Geoff, it is indeed big business and we have given this big businees a very nasty headache and will continue to do so as long as this vile trade continues .Why? Because it is not humane, never has been and never will be so eventually the tide will turn. I may be dead before it does, but the one thing I do know is that the fight we have put up for animals in this country has brought about changes for the better. I and people like me never give up.

I see the Indonesians have sent our vets packing and wont allow them into the meatworks. So without the guarantees we are told the trade will not resume. Remains to be seen how Gillard and Ludwig get around that one.

I see some countries in Europe already ban ritual slaughter .It will happen here eventually.

I do not think for one minute we have been had. We are much too smart for that. We have always been one jump ahead of this big business no matter how tight they might have tried to chain the gates to keep us out. That is why this blew up in their faces big time. They send cattle to 28 countries and they never know where we might be with our cameras next and they know damned well there are animal welfare issues in most if not all of those countries.  So this is a running sore for that big business and will continue to be so.  It has to end so they might as well get on with developing alternatives.

All the best

All the very best with your campaigns, Jenny. I would be grateful if you passed on my comments about kosher slaughter to your colleagues in Animals Australia.

Can do Geoff but

Can do Geoff but you can also express your views to them through email on the contact address. Just google Animals Australia.

You will see from that site that AA is not just concerned about live exports. It is across all areas of animal welfare from poddy calves in dairies, to steeple jumping which kills horses every year, to intensive livestock industries, to pet shops - you name it and we are there trying to get a better outcome for animals.

I respect your views. I am not anti Judaism (my favourite niece last year married into a Jewish family), nor am I anti Islam. I am just against any creature suffering due to mankind's actions, no matter how they are justified. Cruelty to animals world wide knows no limits from bear baiting in Pakistan to dog culling in Bali to harp seal hunting in Canada to ressearch labs in the USA. No nation can claim innocence.

Thanks for the wishes. I will leave this now as I must concentrate on trying to get the best outcomes for our cattle.

Surprised? No.

So why am I not surprised at the report in the Herald this morning stating that all of the sorts of cruelty seen on the Four Corners footage had been known about by the industry?  It seems a report commissioned by the MLA and Livecorp set it all out early last year, but of course it was going on well before that.

So let me hear no more about Animals Australia not showing the footage to Ludwig before it went to air.

Of course they knew about all this. But they did not count on Animals Australia taking it into the lounges of all Australians, thus exposing the live export industry for what it is, a cruel and barbaric trade that is a stain on this country and will be until it is brougt to an end.

The industry has by its action managed to make animal rights and live exports in particular a grass roots issue. And that was the last thing it wanted.
So they wont get away with a policy of concealment ever again.

Heard a whisper...

Heard a whisper that Gillard's email box is so overflowing that a decision to shut it down is imminent. So if you email her and it bounces back that is the reason.

But Mr Abbott's is still up and running so give him a serve as outlined in my previous post if you can take a few moments to do so. Thanks

Crude, ugly and cynical

And the proof of the pudding Marilyn

And the proof of the pudding Marilyn that showing the Government footage of cruelty before it is released to the media does nothing is this.

The footage this last two days of sheep being treated brutally in the ME was shown to the Government last year. The sixth time such footage has come out of the ME and be shown to them.

Did they do anything after they saw this latest footage months before it was aired this week.  No. Just signed off on more shipments to the ME.

As for the Memorandums of Understanding Howard's government claimed to have signed in the ME to get agreement that our sheep would no  longer be treated like that (after six previous Animals Australia investigations and footage), well as I said at the time, not worth the paper they are written on.

So that footage, proof of another pudding. MOUs are just placebos to the public and then it's business as usual.,

So, before you condemn the RSPCA and Animals Australia for going to the media before showing Gillard the footage, think again before you say cruel, ugly and cynical. And when Gillard saw it, did she do anything to intervene for those 100 000 cattle in Indonesia. No.

But either way, nothing will change. Ludwig has sold out the cattle, agreeing to allow non stunning and saying we can't monitor the abattoirs, we'll let the Indonesians do the auditing. Weak and gutless and it will come back to haunt him very soon.

And as for those farmers exporting live that have rushed to Canberra calling for a resumption of the trade without any preconditions of stunning etc, have simply shot themselves in the foot, or rather shot their fellow cattle farmers who dont export in the guts.

Because the next move, with the vast majority of Australians behind us will be a call to get beef off the table till Ludwig comes to his senses, and I will be at the forefront of that boycott even though it will cost me and my fellow farmers dearly.  So the domestic beef farmers better get their act together very smartly before they are hit with a cyclone.

Social networking can bring down a government and it will bring them down if they don't smarten up. 

And to my other half, get used to it. No more beef in this house for quite some time.

Oh dear Marilyn you really believe.....

Oh dear, Marilyn, you really believe them when they say they did not know anything about what was going on over there, despite sending cattle there for two decades and claiming to be in there training people in the abattoirs. Yes even in that very one that showed the worst footage.  Are you really that naive?


Oh but do I hear you say they would have intervened had they been shown the footage. Oh yes, no doubt to suppress it if they could do so. But instead:

What did they do on seeing the footage?

They expressed shock horror and then stood by while thousands more cattle were loaded that very same week for Indonesia. 

And on seeing the footage did the MLA rush over there to ensure no more cattle were treated that way. No Marilyn.  There are 100 000 Australian cattle in Indonesia being slaughtered as we speak with no guarantees being given by the MLA that they will not suffer the same fate.

So do you really believe they would have done anything had they been given the footage earlier, despite being warned last year that there were issues of animal welfare in Indonesia by the RSPCA.

NO Marilyn. They would simply would have gone on loading the ships, and they did. 

And in any case I know the MLA knew that that was how cattle were slaughtered in overseas abattoirs where we sent cattle because Animals Australia got similar footage some three years ago in Egypt, and I personally sent the cd to the Head of the MLA. The MLA expressed shock horror then, and continued on with the trade and cried foul when the Government finally, under great pressure from Animals Australia,  halted the trade to Egypt.

No Marilyn, they knew about all this, they put the boxes in there that allowed this to happen, they spent thousands having people on the ground over there. They knew. So they cry foul when the whole thing blows up in their faces. 

What I find crude, ugly and cynical is the labelling of this whole issue here, and yes on other sites as well as bullshit and crap.  And for that person to then claim to be a compassionate person.

And what I also find crude, ugly and cynical is that ships left with cattle for Indonesia after that footage was shown to the Nation.




WEll of course the government knew

Howard outsourced and invented the MLA and no-one learnt a thing after the corruption in AWB.

Seems to me that too many farmers want to outsource their own responsibilty though as well.

Just one second

Please everyone go to Animals Australia website and sign the Just one Second Survey.

It asks you to say how long it takes you to say that the slaughter method shown on 4 Corners and still being used on Australian cattle already over there is cruel, and then after submitting that to sign a letter demanding Gillard step in to stop those animals already in Indonesia from being slaughtered in that cruel way.

The Government has done nothing about those particular animals while being pressured to get the trade up and running again immediately.

And if you have time send quick email to letter to:

Tony.AbbottMP@aph.gov.au condemning him for demanding the trade resume while knowing those 100 000 animals are still being sent to meatworks that use the methods shown in that footage. How credible is his bleating about his Party being concerned for animal welfare when he is totally silent on that matter, just wants the trade to get going immediately.

Sock it to him onbehalf of those animals suffering as I write.

Thanks all of you who do take a few minutes to do that for those poor bloody cattle.  

What about these poor beggars

Dropping like flies? Is that so?

Marilyn, here is an extract from the MLA's official website.

Your suggestion that cattle originally destined for live export from the north were now without feed and water and would soon be dropping like flies was nothing more than, to use an expression of yours about this whole issue, bs.

MLA. Check out their website but this is copied direct:

"However, the suspension of the live cattle trade to Indonesia will neither result in a rush of cattle into Australian processors, nor a surge of beef in coming weeks and months. Cattle placed on ships to Indonesia are typically Brahmans of light weight (less than 350kg lwt). These cattle will require much longer periods on feed to reach suitable slaughter weights for either the Australian, or more particularly, export markets.

Indeed, the very good season that has been experienced across much of northern Australia, especially western Queensland, will largely allow the additional cattle to be accommodated and gain weight. (My emphasis)

Cattle prices seasonally ease throughout May and June, as additional numbers enter the slaughter markets upon the completion of the wet season. In recent weeks, and in coming weeks, the main influence upon export cattle prices will continue to be sluggish demand in Japan and the US, along with the near record high A$.

So Marilyn, if you want me, or anyone here,  to take what you write here seriously, then you need to be sure of your facts, and stop just throwing out stuff that can be easily challenged.

When people operate that way, it leads me to question everything they say, to look closely and ask myself: Is that so? No matter what the issue, be it in regard to asylum seekers, animal welfare or anything else. Credibility lost is hard to regain, if not impossible.


Jenny, it would seem to me that our corporate culture at every level is rotten to the core.

AWB stole from Iraqis and they had tens of thousands starve to death.

Securency paid bribes all over the world to sell polymer bank notes.

Our banks rip us off every day.

The welfare net has become a punishment net.

Our parliament is putrid and rotten to the core.

The country is falling into disarray and like you I don't believe any of it anymore.

I feel sorry for the farmers and their kids on some level but surely they have some responsibity to see what is happening.

Consistently lied to

Yes Marilyn, on all that I agree with you totally.  And I see no hope of change.  Gillard is gutless and we are going to end up with a Neanderthal that talks like one, walks like one and thinks like one.  But we the people have to take responsibility for putting them there.

Yes, the farmers do have a responsibility in their respective industries to see what is happening, since we know we cannot trust the corporate bodies. That is why I have for years rejected everything the MLA said on the subject of animal welfare in the live export industry and instead made donations to Animals Australia to go out and get the truth for me. Now we have it.

But I also hold big farming companies involved in this trade responsible. They've had the resources to have people out there monitoring the fate of their animals. But no, all they seem interested in is putting them on boats and counting their dollars. And it is not only the big companies. Any farmer who is involved in this trade and never asked any questions once the animals left the property is equally accountable for their fate in my view. Millions of animals have suffered due to their apathy and now they are paying the price, and they should.  Farmers do and can take resonsibility.

As a farmer I cleaned up our local abattoir and saleyards thirty-five years ago because I was prepared to look beyond the farm gate. I saw what was going on and formed a group to do something about it, which on the first occasion involved going in and feeding cattle left unfed for days in Council abattoir paddocks over Christmas 1972. Animals were dying everywhere.  And that after the Council advised me no cattle were ever neglected out there.  Lied to as usual.

(I had a little comfort that day in that I broke into the abattoir hayshed and used the hay from the abattoir hayshed to feed those animals still standing. The Council of course threatened me with prosecution, publically labelling me and my group as irresponsible. Our response was to storm the next Council meeting and take over the meeting from the Mayor forcing them all to leave the Chamber. We got change. We got water troughs put in the saleyards, we got saleyard curfews abolished and we got animals fed on weekends.)

As for the AWB. Well we lost $30 000 due to their capers and they lied to us as well. And when I stood up and demanded answers at their AGM I was simply meeting procedured downed.  A new expression from me.

What was the end result? The AWB agreed to a takeover for a pittance to a big overseas company.  All shareholders, a great number of which were farmers like us lost heavily. And then I read in The Land an official in AWB  was paid a $10 million performance bonus! 

And how many of those executives have ever faced gaol over the bribes to Saddam Hussein and his henchmen?  Not one.

There is not much we really disagree on Marilyn. I hate cruelty and injustice to any living thing. And I do not draw boundaries.

If I see an insect on a log in the fire I do not stand by and watch it burn. I get it out.  Most would not bother and that is what is wrong in this country.

Now I see it is ten o'clock and that is one of the reasons I gave up Webdiary. It keeps one away from what one should be doing if one is to have any hope of winning the war against apathy.

Vitriolic - not, just bored

Paul Walter, me vitriolic toward Marilyn?. No just totally bored, and irritated that whenever I raise the issue of animal welfare she comes in to deride and trivialize the issue with sprays that are not based on fact, but flow from her angst that people might concern themselves with such issues when she clearly belives they should direct their energies elsewhere. Kathy Farelly was right on this.

I have no doubt about her sincerety about the issues that concern her, but if she wants to engage on the one that concerns me here, then she should at least get her facts right before she sends in a spray. Really, that is mostly what she does, just breezes, in sprays a bit of angst, and tries to trivialize the concerns of animal welfare activists. The public furore over how those cattle were brutalised is to her just bs about nothing. And directs that comment to me, laced I sense with a high level of vitriol.

Now, my ire is not toward Marilyn. She has no interest in this subject. So if you will excuse me, both of you, I have to spend my time more fruitfully, which is to continue to use my pen to put as much pressure as I can on all those who played a role in covering up the flaws in this industry for so long, the MLA and Livecorp who take millions of dollars annually from producers.

As a farmer member of the MLA I am calling for an extraordinary general meeting to get some answers from it that its officials seem very reluctant to provide. I see the Beef Producers Association is also now seeking that and a class action is pending against it. But I am not interested in that. I just want this vile trade stopped for good..

And by the way, there are some 100000 cattle of ours in Indonesia awaiting god knows what fate. Those are my concern today. I see we are making some progress on that in that they may be directed now to the better works where stunning is in place.

Ordinary people in Indonesia will not starve if beef supplies are limited. Indonesia is a very fertile group of islands and traditionally seafood, fruit, vegetables and cereals are the primary dietary sources. Higher levels of beef consumption have come with increasing wealth amongst certain levels of society in Asian countries.  Poverty is what puts imported beef beyond the average Indonesian, not any lack of it. And the rich may just have to wear it.

I do happen to know a bit about living in a poor Muslim country, without refrigeration and without access to fresh beef. I did it for a year and survived very well on the diet outlined above. And that country was not rich in those other commodities. Even if beef had been available and I did have a fridge, I could not have afforded to buy it.

I have not now myself eaten meat of any kind for some 23 years. I survive very well.

But this is all a time waster for me here.

Any who are interested to help push for the ban on live exports might like to go this week to the Animals Australia website and look at the things you can do over the coming week to support those parliamentarians putting forward legislation to phase out the trade over the next three years. And send that link on to those on your email lists and facebook sites so they can spread the word.             


one big happy...

You are both prickly, when you are on your high horses.

Now, off to the other thread, to blue with Geoff Pahoff over Pilger being banned in America.

Equality - and plenty of home grown tucker

Tis a funny old world.

You know, if a human is born in Australia then it has a good chance of being a Christian, or having a Christian mentality, whereas if a human was born in Iran then it would probably be of Islamic mind set, it's a geographic thing - but being Christian or Islamic doesn't make a lot of difference to the individual human, life goes on regardless.

But for cows it's different. If a cow is born in Australia then there is a very good chance it's gunna get eaten (at a very young age), however, if a cow was born in India then it would be a bloody God and wander in freedom and in respect (for all of its life).

Therefore, on behalf of my bovine mates iWinnie would like to propose that all Australian citizens be treated in the same manner as Australian cows, and if Australian humans don't like it then I suggest they go to India, and moo a lot.


first cut is the deepest

Actually, just over from a reasonably new marginal blogsite called "No place for Sheep (ironically?) where they'd  got a photo up of an asylum seeker caned (probably for not much at all) in Malaysia. Even thick skinned me was stunned at the damage: not just welts, but seriously broken skin.

We treat animals like this and we treat people like this.

Maybe we'd better head back to the trees our ancestors came down from, for a rethink.

My grandpa's dairy cows

I have to tell you that my grandpa's dairy cows were part of the family and cossetted dreadfully while they gave milk.

Then the family pets got their throats cut by grandpa and became Sunday roasts and shepherd's pies.

And you ate them too

And you ate them too.

Not often

Never could stand the smell of meat.  Still can't.

the crush at the royal show

Once again find myself wedged between the two poles of MS and JH.

Jenny, Jenny, you ruined one of the best posts you've done with the closing vituperation toward Marilyn Shepherd. I know her well enough and she is as every bit as intelligent, sincere and open as as yourself, I'd feel, but concerns herself more with another aspect or face or form of suffering, the problems facing displaced people in a turbulent world.

I don't doubt your sincerity either, Jenny Hume.

Your post reeks of the frustration of being a long-haul industry insider aware of the worldly affairs of the industry, it reminds me of MS's frustrated and weary tone, commenting on dealing with the civil service and lay people on matters refugee.

The cattle lined up in limbo, the concerns of the industry at what seems a hiatus, economic uncertainty and the quite reasonable assumption that meat shortages can drive up the price of food for Indonesians on infinitely lower incomes than us, actually rings true to me, as to MS's comments.

Mercifully, Jenny saved her worst vitriol for the industry itself and it resembles the scepticism people showed concerning an industry's willingness to reform itself that occurred with the foreign student rorts scandal of a few years ago.

JH's diagnosis that the Gillard government is inexperienced, indecisive and prone to panicky reactions - see also their uncertainty with dealing with refugees - actually seems confirmed for Hume, in Shepherd's remarks.

The boats have been stopped

To hear last night that trucks with cattle had been turned away at port in WA  had me out of bed this morning in expectation of some good news for a change.

And there it was. Gillard has finally stopped the cattle boats. Now wait and see if Mr Abbott aligns himself with the industr. If he does I see that as hitching his party to those pictures we saw on our screens last week. I hope he can live with that because hundrerds of thousands of Australians will not.

Then there are the 100 000 cattle already in Indonesia. That will be the focus for me today. Why should they just be considered as sacrificed and beyond our reach.  Not good enough that one single animal more be brutalised.

So thanks to GetUp and all those who were prepared to put their voice and money on the table on this issue. We need to keep up the pressure if we are to stop this vile trade for good. We could go into any other country where we send animals and see issues pertaining to animal welfare. I know, because AA has been in at least seven countries now.

Animals Australia is a national organization of around 40 animal welfare groups in Australia. It was orginally called the Australian and New Zealand Federation of Animals Societies. It was set up in Melbourne in I recall 1980. I was at its inaugural meeting and elected to join my group (Aninmal Liberation ACT) with it and other organizations.

My goal was to fight for better treatment of farm animals from farm to slaughter in Australia.  And the live export industry was firmly in our sights way back then. 

Opposition to our live export trade has been been taken up by iinternational groups that support our goals. And there are brave locals in many countries where there are no animal welfare laws working for change in their own countries. In countries where people are not safe.

One thing an English former animal experimenter turned animal welfare activist told me at the inaugrual meeting of  ANZFAS was:

Never stop writing letters. The pen has not lost its power.  

At my age there is not much more I can do than that.

So another day has dawned and the fight must go on.


And what now Jenny?

Hundreds of thousands of those cows were already sold by farmers who had not made an income for 10 years.  They are now in trucks and open paddocks without feed or water and they could start dropping like flies - in an humane way of starving to death of course.

Meanwhile millions of poor Indonesians will go hungry.

Honest to god, what a load of old bullshit about nothing.

Is that so, Marilyn?

Is that so, Marilyn?   Don't let the facts get in the way of a good rave will you.

You may think this is bs about nothing. Hundreds of thousands of Australians do not agree with you.

Cattle dropping of thirst and hunger ilke flies. Now is that so? Seen it have you? Well I can tell you that any farmer who now tries to make a point by letting his cattle die of thirst and starvation will finish up being prosecuted. Something that could not happen in Indonesia I might add as they have no animal welfare laws to act under. Farmers, or more correctly large companies, facing loss over this are not going to add to that loss by letting their animals starve. If they did, do you really think that would add to their already badly tarnished image, courtesy of the MLA and Livecorp? Oh no, I don't think so Marilyn. Farmer/companies  are not as stupid as you might like to think. They will keep their cattle alive and in the best condition they can to get the best price they can, wherever that may be.Sadly that may mean a journey further than Indonesia where conditions are also sub optimal. 

No income for ten years? I suggest you study exactly where the drought impacted primarily  over the past ten years. It was in the Eastern and Southern States Marilyn, and  in the irrigation belt.  Many northern pastoral companies have done very well thank you very much over those same ten years. And yes I say pastoral companies. I suggest you look at just who exactly benefits most from this trade and you will see some pretty big names there, and then take a look at where they live and you will need to look beyond our shores.  Many of these large estates simply have farm managers who are on a wage, they are most certainly not the prime reapers of the returns from  this vile trade.

Meanwhile in Goulburn the sheep abattoirs have been forced to sell due to a lack of sheep to kill. Several hundred workers' livelihoods depended on that abattoir while our sheep are shipped over to Egypt.  Same story with many of our meatworks in Australia. Those families need to eat too Marilyn.

The Indonesians will starve? They take tens of thousands of tonnes of chilled meat Marilyn and fiddle the quotas to promote their own live cattle industry, dropping it to a point where the farmers there saw a quick higher return in sending their breeding stock to slaughter. So Marilyn, the Indonesian government can increase the chilled trade to cover the shortfall, and you will see they will.

But why do I bother even responding to you. You really are not interested in this subject are you, so why not just quit the field and write your comments on issues that are closer to your heart?

But you are welcome to bat away at me if that makes you happy, and I will simply go on doing what I am doing - working for the improvement in the treatment of animals everywhere. I hope you don't think me rude if I don't bat away back at you.  You will no doubt feel you want the last word, well, feel free. I don't mind one bit.

A pertinent example for the Perplexed

Interesting, the story of St Martin De Porres. Years ago, on a certain twelve step program initially to deal with  a drinking problem, there used to be a gathering of like minded souls;  just up the hill from where I live is a big nineteeth century manse, a glorious bluestone thing and round the corner there is an annexe: De Porres House (Richard would know the place I talk of, just up the hill in North Adelaide proper).

You have me recalling some very good times indeed, but I always wondered who De Porres might be, by the look of him I thought another Jesuit, without bothering to find out more.

Looks like St Martin De Porres has had other ideas. His story was indeed worth the read, from the link - an unglamorous and ultimately substantial quiet acheiver whose values and example point us to our own (collective, modest, unstated) mission statement, for want of a better description, over quite some  time, at Webdiary. In short a good example for an online journal that purports to value the truth, community and humanity.

I didn't reply immediately to Jenny's last post. Marilyn has rewarded me for my patience, they will find a mutual subject they can finally agree upon: Julia Gillard (and Abbott, if im not wrong).

Marilyn and I had a chat last night after QandA, we are both suffering "humanity fatigue" after a nasty week where the dark realities that many like to avoid have manifested themselves, despite our best attempts to look the other way, as we do.

Right across the country at the moment there is a loud wail of "enough already" , as to the cruelties to man and beast alike depicted in our lurid media, perpetrated by crass opportunists.

But you suspect that, after a little bit of tinkering at the edges and much accompanying spin, neither human nor beast will be ultimately be much better off, even with the effluxion of time, something like business as usual , with a complacent accompanying yawn, from our betters.

Stopping the Boats

Well Paul Walter, Marilyn and I probably do sail the same seas at times.

Abbott: Don't like the man, don't trust the man. And that from one who grew up in a house where the adults would never have dreamed of voting for anyone other than the Country or Liberal Party. Until one year my dear old mum voted Communist Party. As Ian said at the time, Fraser had no hope when the Mrs Humes of the world started voting Communist.

The only boats Abbott is interested in stoppping are the people boats. The cattle boats, well on those he has nothing to say.

Gillard. I find her weak and indecisive and lacking moral and political courage.  And in any leader that is fatal. So as a result we will likely get Abbott next time around. Once he's in people will soon learn how they were duped by all this running around people's work places bleating big new tax. He'll be too busy in his office working out his own big new taxes.

Spare me from the lot of them. Yes it will be business as usual no doubt but I will keep on batting till I too am pushing up crocus. I may not change much, but at least I will have tried.

However I am not all pessimistic as I think the current furore over the cattle will see some changes for the better in regard to how our cattle at least are handled over there, even if we never succeed in stopping the boats..

Now I see I am getting pulled back into this blogging and that takes me from my goal of harrassing the likes of Abbott and Gillard and the MLA.  

So enough.

75 out a hundred! So stop the boats

As the owner of a cattle property I get emails from Meat and Livestock Australia. Their latest frantic effort to deal with this tells me that of another 100 abattoirs only 25 on inspection will be accredited. That suggests very strongly to me that the cruelty we saw in the 11 works Animals Australia reported on is not confined to those 11.

But why is that so surprising. I have been in a crush with 700 kg cattle during my years on the land, trying to get stuff down their necks in the days before decent head stalls.  They are enormously strong beasts these northern cattle, and to cut their thick throats with even a sharp knife would require they be fully restrained. So with stunning limited to only a few works, what we saw is how they restrain them, or more correctly, try to. The resulting cruelty is sickening.

The piss weak Gillard Government is still  letting cattle leave for Indonesia, knowing damned well only a few abatttoirs have pre stunning, so what we saw will still be going on as animals are wrestled to the ground. Tendons slashed, belted, kicked - the lot while this lot out here talk and talk about imrpovements, that have been 20 years in the making. And Gillard and her Governent do not have the political guts to intervene.  Hell for once she has the farmers on side, 90% of the public on side if the SMH poll is anything to go by; the unions on side and still she lets the boats go. 

Abbott must be laughing himself silly, if that were more possible than it already is. If I see that goon once more time bleating "big new tax" I think I will take and axe to the teev.

But the good news is 230 000 plus have signed the GetUp petition, and just on $326,000 has been raised for our ad campaign. Now you would think that would tell Gillard something, would you not?

Hell my crocus growing vicious little hound had more brains than her. Though maybe not. Maybe he was just like her. No respect for the hand that  fed him.

Happy to slaughter humans too

On Frontline we saw the reality of Afghanistan admitted by the US for the first time - the Taliban run the place - yet we are sending soldiers to slaughter the humans.

Why would the lazy dingbat care about cows Jenny?

I have to confess the only people I despise more than those who are cruel to humans are those who are cruel to animals.

Have to laugh at the moron ALP though

They claim the Malaysian illegal human trading deal will depend on human rights being respected while they are busy breaching human rights by punishing a random 800 people because the government keep breaking the law over refugees already here.

Under Australian law the High Court in the cases of NAGV and NAGW of 2005 deemed it illegal to deny the right of people to make a refugee claim because DIAC decided they could go to another country. The Court found that if that was legal then not one person would be able to claim asylum anywhere in the world. Under Article 32 of the refugee convention it is illegal to turn people away at our borders.

What Gillard is doing is breaking the law in a number of ways to pretend that the voluntary humanitarian program has legal status and seeking asylum does not except if you fly here.

25,000 asylum seekers have flown here since 2005. Half are not owed our protection under the refugee convention but we do not hear Gillard stand in front of the world and claim they have to be cherry picked to be sent to some other country - the law for asylum seekers is that they apply in signatory countries.

11,000 have sailed here, over 90% will be found to be owed protection but the government have broken the law by:

  1. Jailing them all in arbitrary detention is spite of new rules saying they wouldn't.
  2. Jailing them outside the law, something the full 7-0 members of the high court said was illegal.
  3. Illegally suspending claims for Afghans and Sri Lankans by claiming in advance that their cases would be denied. Records now show that 99.7% of Afghans were then accepted last year and 88% of Sri Lankans.
  4. 1300 accepted refugees were kept illegally detained while ASIO pretended they were doing security checks that were and are not legally required.
  5. A couple of thousand children have been jailed indefinitely even though the law changed in 2005 to prevent them being jailed.

Rather than admit they had been breaking the law on a large scale and illegally treating innocent human beings, Gillard decides to make some appalling deal where 800 random people who ask for our help will be illegally exiled to a nation that whips, canes, tortures and cages people - Gillard is simply trying to avoid legal obligations and punish people who need help.

Now it seems that they have discovered that they can't by law deport children anywhere, they will discover that they can't deport anyone or make forced deals without permission.

Bowen prattles about people smuggling business models but he is into human trafficking, the other thing was made up on 7 May and the media are so thick they think it is real.

I exposed the smuggling lie on Webdiary nearly 10 years ago, much to Harry's disgust if I remember rightly.

Bowen says he will exile 800 random people so they have nothing to sell except who is selling what when it is the refugees who look for transport and not the other way around.




(62) Program 3.1: Border Management

Senator Cash (L&CA 59) asked:

What accounts have been provided by IMAs regarding representations made to them by people smugglers regarding the likelihood of their obtaining permanent residency or citizenship in Australia?


The Department does not specifically capture and collate data regarding representations made to irregular maritime arrivals (IMAs) by people smugglers about the prospects of obtaining permanent residence or citizenship in Australia. However, based on the comments gathered from the entry interviews of 5209 IMAs in the 2009-10 financial year, 85 (or approximately 1.6%) IMAs claimed their people smuggler provided country information about Australia, such as:

  • Australia would accept them as refugees;
  • the person would be able to live in Australia permanently;
  • Australia is a safe and humanitarian country, free of discrimination.
Of those 85 IMAs however, only six specifically claimed their people smuggler told them they would get residency or citizenship in Australia

Cattle are raised to be killed, they are raised to be killed here and elsewhere and they make a lot of money for a lot of people and feed a whole lot of other people. Once they are sold they are not ours and the trade is not illegal. The trade of humans is illegal.

Saint Martin de Porres

Kathy has just sent me this link. This was a man who lived compassion to a its ultimate.

The people who bother me most are those who, even if they are wealthy, will not give a dime to any cause. I have a millionaire friend who boasts every time we meet about whether he got a freeby of some sort that day (even a coffee), how much money he made on the share market that week, how minimal the tax is he pays and surprise surprise: When I suggest on hearing all that that ChildFund is looking for more sponsors for children, he says No. He also refuses any suggeston he might like to make a donation to Animals Asia which is trying to rescue the Moon Bears in the bile farms. Oh well you can't win them all.

But I do have a bit of fun at his expense. I boasted back one day that we had sold some shares and made some capital gains, but added we would lose some of that in tax. He asked, "Oh, how much did you make?" I told him and he then asked how long had we had them. I said about eight years. He looked at me as if I was a fool and told me he made $60 000 in the past three months and that if we  had had  our shares in a super fund we would have minimised the tax.. I replied, "Oh but I don't mind paying a bit of tax. After all, if everyone paid no tax where would the country be?" That shut him up.  

Yes those are the people who bother me most.  And yes Paul Walter, animals can be cruel too. I have the marks on my arm to show it, rendered by a little dog I loved so much but whose attitude to me was somewhat ambivalent. Ian had a different view. He said he was just plain vicious.  I'll probably never know now. He is buried in the garden and each year his grave sprouts a host of golden crocus I planted over him.

Don't salute me. Salute Lyn White who had the guts to go and film those dreadful scenes in order to expose them. I could not have done that. I would have physically attacked that man whipping that beast with a chain and doing those other dreadful things to those cattle. The only escape my mind will ever have from those terrible scenes will be the day I too am pushing up crocus.

He is Asleep

Under Crocus?

DieHard with a Vengeance. Remind me not to get on your bad side.

And very pretty too

Paul Walter, yes curious.. And very pretty every autumn too, a litle neat rectangle of bright yellow flowers to brighten a day of sad reflection.

Though I confess Ian's idea of a box thorn did for one fleeting moment cross my mind. But that was soon quashed as being unnecessarily vengeful.

neither animals NOR people...

It's a repeat of a number of online conversations about that show that I've read over the last week.

My response elsewhere was, well, both people and animals cop it from (other) humans. The problem actually resides in human beings, whether or not this is a cultural or (and) natural process. Although animals can be wantonly cruel, too, as you notice with a cat with a mouse or wild dogs with livestock.

I don't understand the hostility toward Marilyn and I salute Jenny Hume for what I take to be a generous, responsible gesture and action.

 For the rest, read Michael Talbot.

It is Ok Kath

Kathy, thanks, but it is OK. I understand Marilyn's ire. I think she just finds it a little difficult to accept what Gandhi said:

That a nation's progress can be measured by the way it treats its animals.

Gandhi saw that if a man (or woman) could turn a blind eye to  the ill treatment of an animal then that person was not likely going to be the sort of person who would be bothered to help a blind man across the street.

You are either compassionate in the face of suffering of living things, be they man or beast, or you are not. 

I think Marilyn finds it hard to believe that if one happens to care about how animals are treated, then one by definition is unconcerned about human suffering. 

Well, we all know that is a generalization that would not bear much scrutiny.

You will be pleased to see we have raised some $270 000 on GetUp so far for an advertising campaing, and have over 215 000 signatures on the petition. 

And for Marilyn's benefit, yes I gave a thousand dollars to the cause. And in the same week I also sent off a thousand dollar cheque for suppot of two impoverished children in Africa. All of which by the way was on the overdraft

But as a farmer I am used to dealing with cranky bank managers. And on that at least Marilyn, you and I are probably at one.

Michael, I agree with everything you say. 

Now I must go. I swore off blogging some two years ago. If anyone wishes you can give to the campaign on GetUp as well as sign the petition.


Parades and rain

Now, why am I not surprised that you showed up to rain on Jenny's parade, so to speak?

Give it a rest. will ya. Jenny is very much concerned with the rights of human beings too. She's a good and caring person.

It pisses me off no end that, every time Jenny posts about cruelty to animals, you jump in and start bleating (pun intended) about human rights, as if Jenny does not give a toss. The two are not mutually exlusive, Marilyn.

Prizes and parades

This is a favourite tactic of the lunatic left. Sydney "Peace" Prize recipient, Noam Chomsky, is a master of it. Some call it the "yes ... but" technique. It involves a combination of irrational subject sliding and appalling moral relativism. You know how it works. Some one says that Osama bin Laden was a dangerous and prolific murderer of innocent people. The lunatic left replies "yes but George W Bush killed more people and was a worse criminal". End of discussion. It is the most intellectually dishonest thing of our age.

As Jenny knows, I signed the petition without hesitation. It is the first time I have supported a GetUp campaign. Cruelty to animals is a seriously evil thing.

Vile Trade

Jenny, I agree it is that.

It is also another example of the strange desperation of the Australian oligarchy to ensure that Australia is nothing more than an exploitable source of raw commodities, nothing to be processed onshore, everything, animal, vegetable and mineral, to be exported as raw materials.  Australia to be a mine and nothing more, in all things.

If chilled raw meat cannot be sold to Indonesia or Irak or Saudi Arabia for reasons of price, the remedy is not to send them live cattle, but to black ban them in respect of any meat trade.

This trade was established in part on the argument that meat eaten in Muslim countries needed to slaughtered in those countries for religious reasons. The Indonesian example demonstrates that that is a fraudulent argument.

But we know also that a number of Muslim countries treat humans, that typically a Muslim country treats humans as the implicated Indonesian abattoirs treat cattle, as the Turks treat Armenians and Kurds, as the Iranians treat women and any lawyer who represents them, as the Pashtun treat Hazaras, as the Syrians treat little boys.

(Which incidentally is why [partly] I think singling out Gaddafi, murderous as he is, as justification for NATO's fomenting a civil war in Libya, with all the horrors that go with a civil war, was just as fraudulent and just as vicious as anything Gaddafi has done.  The death of Gaddafi is now urgent, because the ending of the civil war is urgent, but that is not to judge Gaddafi, and if there is a better future for Libya without him than the past that country enjoyed or suffered under him I will be very surprised.)

Mercifully, there are exceptions.  Sadly, they are exceptional.


And as Sudanese Arabs treat Darfur Africans.


But other people are allowed to eat you know. I find it amazing that people can be upset about animals and not give a stuff about human beings being bought and sold.

We saw another case on Dateline of human slavery by the western nations. Destitute young Africans are treated worse than dogs to pick vegies and fruit for the wealthy in Europe and no-one cares.

Yet a few white Germans die of food poisoning and suddenly there is fear and suspicion and even though the food packed in Spain is cleared everyone cancels their orders and the Africans starve.

We see in the Sun Herald today two stories about Syria. Syria is terrible for torturing a boy, but Australia send home a young Syrian man before he has his tribunal hearing and even though he might be killed by the same people who tortured the Syrian boy.

Animals feed humans, that is a fact of life. I almost never eat animals by the way, neither would I ever own an animal, kick an animal, harm an animal or mistreat an animal in any way.

In many ways many animals are better humans than humans, but they still don't come first.

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