Many people will say that Israel's attack on the Gaza Freedom Flotilla was an act of self-defence, a prevention of supplies reaching those who would attack it. Maybe the Israelis merely intended to commandeer the leading Turkish vessel, but something has gone terribly wrong. The result has been Israeli Navy Seals firing guns at a boatload of civilians who defended themselves against the boarding party.
Depending on which reports you believe, the number of dead killed by the Israelis numbers between eight and fourteen, and many more wounded. The deaths have been condemned around the world The European Union has condemned the attack, and an emergency session of the UN Security Council is now debating a response.
Whatever your opinion, it's obvious that Israel is much less kindly regarded today than yesterday. No doubt, over the next few days, we're going to hear of many calls for revenge. I hope we don't hear reports of acts of retribution, but am afraid that the IDF's actions yesterday are going to be the catalyst for new levels of bloodshed in the Middle East.
Let's hope that the will for peace is strong enough to overcome this fiasco. I worry that it won't , and that much more blood is about to be spilled.
Alan - (b)all is not lost - yet - sorry about the lefty
Dear Alan: Why did Israeli leadership choose the Rambo option when a more sensible and non-violent approach would have done the trick?
That was the question Alan mate - you didn't answer it.
Marilyn now holds title to your left testicle (oops I left the penalties bit out - sometimes that can be inconvenient hey).
But all is not lost - you can have another go, and seeing you are now fully aware of the penalties, er penalty (that term is singular now) the incentive to actually answer will be enormous.
Alan, I knew I could rely on you to cum up with the right solution (as usual) but the objective of our mission is to win at all costs - all you have to do is answer a simple question. Grab the horn by the dilemmas old chap and go for it.
The things you have to do to get people all sexed up.
Christ, where's Chris Parsons when you need him, how they hanging me old dear ;-)
Enough
Justin, so far on this thread you have:
And that's just from memory. What I don't remember is a single word criticising the animals who attacked the soldiers with lethal weapons, or the Gaza fleet peace activists who told the Israeli naval officer "to get back to Auschwitz" or Hamas and the other terrorists who have been murdering innocents for years. Not a murmer that would suggest any understanding at all that Israel might have some legitimate concerns about the ambitions of Hamas and Iran who are tryng to break the blockade. Plenty of righteous indignation about a T-shirt. Not a single word about the cold blooded murder of living pregnant women and their kids. Like this one.
And you accuse me of having no feeling?
I don't think there is much point in continuing this conversation.
The Church of Absolute Faith - or feeding the bovine
"Not a single word about the cold blooded murder of living pregnant women and their kids. Like this one."
Geoff I had no idea whatsoever a pregnant woman and her four children were murdered by Arafat's mob six years ago. Of course it was a tragedy and any human being claiming to be such would no doubt have sympathies for those poor souls.
But once again Geoff it is a little unfair - to point out my lack of sensitivity over an incident I knew nothing about, and then accuse me of not commenting on same. To the best of my knowledge you have not posted that link previously - would that be correct?
Having said that you did not mention that the poor souls murdered at the hands of Arafat's mob were settlers - building their future upon disputed territory (stolen land?) for whatever their justification. The fact that they were "settlers" does not devalue their worth as human beings but it does bring into question the wisdom of their choice of real-estate.
In short, don't you think it was unwise for a pregnant women to be placing herself and children in such a risky place?
However, having said that please note that the previous question is no way an attempt to blame the victim. Settling up shop on disputed land is one thing - getting murdered for it is another thing.
I would ask the same question to those peace activists who thought it reasonable to bring children (some babies) to a potentially explosive demonstration, deliberately seeking a peaceful but provocative confrontation. It is common knowledge that when demonstrating against Israel violence is always a real posibility. Were the peace activists naive or is it they who underestimated the will of the IDF?
Think about this for a moment:
How would you feel if the remnants of the local Bundjalung mob turned up one bright sunny day and set up shop on your back paddock. The Bundjalung mob, having had a continuous relationship with the Tweed Heads area for some tens of thousands of years, claim that as they have always belonged to your back paddock the have the right to occupy same. They do so without your permission. How would you feel, and more importantly what would you do?
Is that not a fair question?
But that question will never be tested in reality for we have successfully done a pretty comprehensive job in neutralising our indigenous brothers and sisters.To our shame and acknowledgement of same. Today we live safe in the knowledge that our victims will never be able to take back what was theirs, simply because, we, the beneficiaries of our forefathers crimes, now walk upon the bones and amongst the ghosts of black fellas.
It works both ways.
You see Geoff, I have the luxury of having no sacred cows to defend, except one - women and children first. My whole adult life has been underpinned by that bovine I feed and nurture on a daily basis.
Religiously speaking I would declare myself a pantheist. Those who identify god as being all things great and small. Those who choose (or really inherit) a jealous god would claim that pantheism is just another form atheism.
Of course, the atheist does not believe in god because it is not logical (no proof) and to prove the existence of god is "beyond the bounds of pure reason" - a concept a somewhat self righteous "expert" on delusion pinched off Kant and has made a shit load of cash from people who for some reason or another need to sooth their prejudices.
Understandably people of faith feel threatened and become defensive (quite often aggressive), especially when they have been subject to ridicule by an insensitive smart arse who conveniently repackages the work of a gentle metaphysical master?
I have no problem with Dawkins' subject matter, it's the manner in which he presents old news.
So what does one do who has developed an interest (a passion even) in people and their faiths. They only logical thing to do is embrace the fucking lot and be done with it.
Absolute Faith.
I'll stop there re a more comprehensive illustration of AF - I suspect few would want to read this crap and to explain my definition of Absolute Faith requires a lot more words - stuff to consider.
But Absolute Faith works for me, it nurtures my sacred cow and gives me the luxury of observing and having relationships with my fellow traveller in an inquisitive and non threatening manner - and share in the asthetics, the mythology and the joys their faith has to offer, but never owned by same ( a relationship sans control or dogma) - it gives one the opportunity to "walk towards the light".
As such those of Absolute Faith consider all believers (and non believers) fellow travellers. When one member of our congregation attacks another the whole congregation suffers - and we cry. When one member or our congregation gives comfort to another we cry also - with joy.
Women and children first underpins our entire theology - the sacred cow of sacred cows - from which all else follows.
If certain intellectuals feel that those of faith are delusional then what so Absolute Faith?
The delusion of delusions, or a romantic mystery?
Let's not rob ourselves of romance, absolute romance - the romance with our personal and shared existence in a universe that is for all intents and purposes an enigma. AF can be a seductive old moo.
Geoff dear friend, whether you like it or not the Church of Absolute Faith embraces you as one of our congregation; our church has no doors, no locks, no walls and no lores.
Religious values foster co-operation and empathy - religious ideology promotes comparison and conflict.
Finally my apologies for such a lenghly piece, however I trust you will appreciate my reasons for doing so.
PS. Earlier I uploaded a challenge - a mischievious and provocotive attempt to strip away the fog of war and consider more closely the psychological archetypes that have fuelled this thread and the conflict we address. Like all things it is a matter of the mind, or is it a battle of wills?
Geoff, It is funny
Geoff, It is funny that Justin and Marilyn never seem to read or comment on things like the cold blooded murder of a mother and 4 daughters.
I hope Justin and Marilyn live long enough to see the day Israel loses it's patience with that scum Hamas.
I hope there is enough room in heaven for all the martyrs and enough virgins to go around.
Oh dear.
You do get your knickers in a twist don't you?
The audio was doctored, the Israeli's have admitted it in their media, but we have not heard that here.
http://aliabunimah.posterous.com/blog-post-israel-hasbara-fails-again-pics-sho
And oh dear, the Israeli's should not try and censor out material like this, they just make them look more repulsive when we see what theydid to their victims.
Justin, No I would not wear
Justin, No I would not wear the tee-shirt that the 2 young soldiers were wearing and nor would any normal person.
Yes I have a picture of a Palestinian tee-shirt which shows two 10 year old Palestinians training to be terrorists, what sick mind would have made a shirt like that.
I cannot paste the picture on Webdiary, perhaps I could email it to you.
I do get angry about this bit in the SMH today with McGeough still making a meal of his story.
Geraghty said at least one of the Israeli commandos who boarded their ship had an Australian accent something Mr. Trad said was shocking.Sheikh Hilaly and Mr. Trad are assuming that the Israeli commando who spoke English with an Australian accent is an Australian.If the Australian accent is so shocking to Mr. Trad, why doesn’t he do us all a favour and leave the country.Speaking in Arabic, translated into English by his friend Keysar Trad, Sheikh Hilaly denounced the ''Zionist aggression'' and ''Zionist terrorism'' of Israel, whose commandos killed nine activists when they attacked a flotilla of aid ships bound for Gaza last Monday.Sheikh Hilaly has called upon Australian Muslims and supporters of the Palestinian cause to volunteer for the crew of an Australian boat he will send to break the Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip.
What’s the betting that the Sheikh will not be on the boat and what does he mean by this ''Blood that has been shed is blood that will not go cheap,'' Sheikh Hilaly said. ''We will stand together and fight together''.
How does Mr. Trad think we feel when Australians hear people like Sheikh Hilaly who cannot speak a word of English, despite living in Australia for a number of years.
''We will write to the Attorney-General and ask, 'Why are Australians involved in acts of piracy? … Will these people be prosecuted in accordance with Australian law?','' Mr Trad said.
So all you folks with Australian accents watch out for Sheikh Hilaly and Mr. Trad.
Holy Moses more "Self Hating Jews"
This as reported in a "self hating" Jewish newsapaper:
Hopefully soon the whole world will be full of SHJ's; for some reason they speak with common sense and reason, even better when those SHJ's are in the military.
A bad joke? Crucify them!
Justin, for chrissake read the article you linked about the T-shirts and get a grip.
Over a year ago, two or three 20 year old servicemen in the IDF made an attempt at black humour. Black humour is always risky, as anyone who attempts it will tell you, and this effort dumped like the proverbial lead balloon after a bad night out at a very bad restaurant. They were charged and court martialled for making a bad joke (an indictable offence in the IDF as it is under Israeli civil law) convicted, and told not to do it again.
What more do you want? If you can honestly put your hand on your heart and say that you never said or did anything when you were around that age that you would have good cause to be thankful the cameras of the world media weren't around to record it, then your extraordinary and belated displays of outrage here might be understandable.
Life on Mars
"Over a year ago, two or three 20 year old servicemen in the IDF made an attempt at black humour."
That sounds just like Donald Rumsfeld claiming it was only a "few bad apples" involved in torture - did you believe him Geoff?
Now, George ("we don't torture") Bush champions the depravity, and as we all knew Rumsfeld was lying through his teeth from day one, having approved of torture from day one. From memory a couple of happless red necks took the wrap and got locked up, they must be pissed especially when they were behaving as instructed.
Question for Geoff: If anybody had to be imprisioned for torture should it have been those who behaved as directed or those who issued the orders?
In the case of the t-shirt: did senior IDF guys approve of same? - not on your life.
Do senior IDF guys share a similar mind set with the guys who produced that t-shirt - that' a matter of opinion, but from my experience youth does not create depravity, it's learnt from adults (bleeding obvious) - the link below is worth a read.
Now who do I believe Geoff?
You or this Dark Guy?
I've got no idea who Doug is (claims to be a US vet) but he does write with realistic sensibilities.
His comments on standing armies (and military culture) are poignant. I suppose in this day and age it should come as no surprise that lads brought up on a diet of violent computer games and dehumanising pornography find those t-shirts attractive.
How lucky to have been living on Mars, and not in the military.
Now who do I believe Geoff? Some guy I've never heard of who sooths my prejudices, or some guy who's comments have proved to be somewhat careless - to be kind.
Prejudice
ZFA and GCPeople
Geoff, I intentionally did you the courtesy of ignoring that comment for obvious reasons. Sometimes it's embarrassing have to speak in words of one sylabble to intelligent adults. But here we go again:
The inference of such a claim is that the ZFA represents all Australian Jews when in fact it doesn't.
Father Park did try to point out similar earlier - and the family braincell understood the obvious.
The Australian Labor Party (at present) acts on behalf of all Australians, but how many Australians agree with the policies of Kevin Rudd and Co? Does the ALP reflect your world view Geoff?
A more fairer claim would be...
... in which case I would say fair cop.
It would be also honest for me to claim I have a problem with the Vatican and some Catholics. It would also appear some Catholics have a problem with the Vatican - why? The dehumanisation of innocent children for starters.
Is the above not reasonable?
Now, is it also not reasonable that some Jews have a problem with Zionism? - why - for the dehumanisation of Palestinians for starters.
This is not only reasonable it is a FACT. I know this from personal experience and from what many "self-hating Jews" (a Zionist term no doubt) have written.
Sadly Geoff your contributions to this this thread and the manner in which they have been made have done the Zionist cause no good.
In fact your comments and tastelessness of same are in effect a crude reflection of Zionist propaganda; as such belittle you and your cause. Such an approach must give comfort to Hamas for reasons obvious.
Think about it.
I'll have more to say about that in a bit.
PS. So far you and Alan have avoided addressing a number of my questions. The silence is telling.
Why
Justin , Why did Israeli leadership choose the Rambo option when a more sensible and non-violent approach would have done the trick?.
I will try to help you out as this seems too difficult for you to comprehend, the boat was asked to stop by the Israeli navy, but did not.
It must have been obvious to the navy that the Turkish Muslim terrorists were spoiling for a fight so that's what they got. The families of these Turks said they wanted to be martyrs, the Israelis just helped them to get there quicker. Besides violence is the only thing the Turks understand, otherwise they would be sending Humanitarian Aid to the Kurds.
Now then be a good chap and see if you can get Marilyn to answer this question, "And for the record, Israel said they cannot have the wheelchairs because they already have enough".
I can tell Marilyn one thing, if Israel ever finds out for sure that Gilad Shalit is not alive, the Muslims in Gaza will wish they were never born.
What?
Just providing some bloody nuisance facts is all
The inference of such a claim is that the ZFA represents all Australian Jews when in fact it doesn't.
No Justin. The inference of my claim is that if you have a problem with the ZFA then you have a problem with Australian Jews.
The ZFA is not some kind of political party, or ticket, within Australian Jewish communal politics, Justin. It is a central part of the structure of the community itself and has been for a long time. Research it yourself, if you no longer feel you can trust anything I say.
Justin, I'm tryng not to be offensive but I honestly think your questions are a bit ... well ... silly. A bit like believing the USS Liberty incident was an inside job (or whatever).
Silly Questions? you beauty...
The Vatican or Catholic hierarchy does not profess to be a political party either Geoff. I won't waste any more time on the matter for obvious reasons.
Now for the silly questions. Which questions were silly Geoff, please explain?
Was it this one:
Why did they not peacefully disable the boats instead of taking the Rambo option? or words to that effect.
Such an option was raised by Gil Hoffman in the JPOST, apparently it was suggested by a senior Israeli naval officer.
Why is it a silly question Geoff and why do you think they would have dismissed the easy/peaceful option?
PS. your dig re the USS Liberty only adds another little number to th ever lengthening tattoo. The Liberty's demise, no matter which way you look at it was a tragedy, caused by Israeli carelessness or recklessness.
Your reaction to my query was to dismiss the event and concerns of the survivors in a flippant and insensitive manner. Re-read your comments and tell me where you have shown any consideration for the innocent victims?
Sadly you continue to show your insensitivity, or it is callousness towards all those who disagree with you, including those like the victims of the Liberty who become an embarrassment or hindrance to self perceived Israeli perfection. I would argue that such an attitude only mirrors that which the world at large finds repugnant about Israeli attitudes and behaviour towards it's neighbours and friends.
Think about it.
ZCA
On the subject of bias ...
Here are some more bloody nuisance facts from some other bloody nuisance Jews. I know some of you will find this challenging but the information here, like that provided by the ZFA, the AIJAC and the Canada/Israel group, is as accurate on these subjects as you will find from anywhere in the English language. Even if it does come from Jews.
It didn't even occur to me to point out that the site I linked was put up by the lead Jewish commmunal bodies. In my naivete, I thought that was both self-evident and non-controversal. I should have known better of course.
The ZFA incidentally is a venerable body established in 1927 by prominant Australians like Rabbi Brodie and Sir John Monash and is the peak Australian Jewish communal organisation on matters relating to Israel and Australia/Israel relations. It is the official voice of the Australian Jewish community on these matters. Unlike the Catholic Church, its ruling committee is elected.
I suppose I should not be surprised that we have reached the point in this country where such a body is automatically assumed to be an unreliable source of information because, I assume, it has the word "Zionist" in its name. If that is your opinion, I guess it will not make any difference to point out that it, like all official Jewish communal bodies, goes to considerable lengths to get its facts right. They have to. As just about anybody who knows anything about Jewish communal bodies will tell you.
I will say this however. To discount a pro-Zionist opinion because its source is Jewish, while at the same time giving special weight to an anti-Zionist opinion because its source is Jewish, strikes me as not only irrational but a pretty good indication of antisemitism.
Naivete? Strike me bloody pink!
You did Geoff, you did
As to your supposed "naivete", the stingray ate it years ago. Spare me. You'd have faired better with ignorance.
So then, you weren't ignorant Geoff - you realised this was a third party blog "developed and supported" by Community Internet Engagement which is linked to the ZFA. Yet you decided that everyone should dig and find this out for themselves? Something 9.8 of 10 would not ever do - of course.Disingenous.
As usual Geoff, you ignore the point. Anyone who disagrees with the ZFA on anything has a problem with Australian Jews?
Father Park
ZFA and all that
Anyone who disagrees with the ZFA on anything has a problem with Australian Jews?
That's not what I said, Father Park.
What I said is if you have a problem with the ZFA then you have a problem with Australian Jews.
As usual Father, you ignore the point.
Interestingly, the site I originally linked, and which I assumed that the fact it was an official Jewish community initiative of some sort was as obvious to all as it was to me, (after all, who else?) does not appear to be the direct effort of the ZFA as such. It seems to have been put up by this project, Community Internet Engagement, which my guess would involve several other community groups including I imagine in particular the Zionist Council of Victoria.
Have a look at the site. It's interesting.The Community Internet Engagement operates as a unit within the ZFA and is funded by The Pratt Foundation.. It has a team of experts headed up by this guy:
Dr Andre Oboler is CIE's Director. He is a social media expert, researcher, and regular commentator in the press on technology issues affecting Israel and the Jewish people.
Dr Oboler holds a PhD in Computer Science from Lancaster University (UK), completed a Post-Doctoral Fellowship year in Political Science at Bar-Ilan University (Israel), and originally graduated with a first class honours degree in Computer Science from Monash University (Australia).
It focus areas are interesting. For example,
CIE will work with community organisation to give their members a voice online. This effort in online democracy and opinion sharing will be run through blogs which CIE will help set up and provide technical support to as needed.
The blog effort will include training and workshops to provide more people with the skills to share their thoughts online. The project will also encourage greater involvement in community life by generating more discussion, debate and buzz about events, issues and developments within the community.
Well, I thought it was interesting. I didn't know that. Thanks guys, for making me look it all up.
But like I said, if you have a problem with the ZFA then you have a problem with Australian Jews.
Some more bloody nuisance facts ...
Here's some information on the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, courtesy of the Israeli government. I am hoping that Justin will find these facts more digestible as they come from Israeli Jews, not Australian Jews. No? Then perhaps Canadian Jews might be more acceptable (irony).
Would you like the menu from one of the leading Gaza restaurants? I hear the Beef Stroganoff is pretty good but the wine list sucks.
Now you've got me lost.
Have read the thread comments, some add considerably, others I can't be bothered with.
The one that truly piques my curiosity is Jay's; " Im lost"
The Peace Convoy, carrying medical supplies, posed no real threat to Israel beyond the challenge to its notoriously inhumane blockade of Palestinians, particularly Gazans. As someone else, I think Justin, pointed out, malnutrition and disease are now rife in Gaza because of this sick Warsaw Ghetto type treatment of the Palestinians.
And so it goes on, year after year; decade after decade.
You are indeed lost
Paul , Firstly it is anything but a Peace Convoy, these idiots are there as a publicity stunt and to stir up trouble.
If you think that mentioning the words "medical supplies" makes it OK, you could not be more wrong. Yes I know it is emotive and Justin and Marilyn will fall for that sort of crap.
The truth is that if the Activists had docked at the right port they could have unloaded the medecines and wheelchairs and they would have been delivered, but not the cement.
Perhaps you could explain to everyone why the Hamas refused to accept the wheelchairs the Israelis let through. Could it be the Hamas run their own Warsaw Ghetto like the animals they are.
And so it goes on, year after year; decade after decade.
Alan you live in fantasy land
1. Gaza is not Israel.
2. Israel started Hamas
3. Hamas is the elected government of Palestine.
4. the blockade is illegal
5. Autopsies show that the protestors were assassinated, shot in the back of the head by jews.
Who are you to sit in Australia and sanction the deliberate starvation of 1.5 million human beings because you don't think they elected the right fucking government?
You and your ilk do no-one any favours.
And for the record, Israel said they cannot have the wheelchairs because they already have enough.
Now we know
Marilyn, I had no idea an autopsy could show show up the religion of a person who fires a gun, obviously that is the case in your world.
Does it also work with muslims?.
I know Gaza is not Israel just by the smell.
I know Hamas is the elected government Palestine, and they deserve it.
The blockade is not illegal, this is one way you can deal with terrorists.
Why don't you turn your hatred against Rudd and Garrett who are responsible for the deaths of 4 Australians through their failed Insulation scheme.
By the way where did you get this bit of rubbish from " Israel said they cannot have the wheelchairs because they already have enough"?.
Not responsible
Rudd and Garrett are not responsible for 4 deaths in the insulation program and that has nothing at all to do with Jews murdering Turks on the high seas.
I can safely say they are jews because Peres is going to award the killer who put bullets in the backs of 5 of the people with a medal, he would not give a medal to anyone but a Jew.
Australia has no quarrel with the Palestinians and we never have.
The blockade is not legal and it never has been.
Just answer
Marilyn, Why can't you answer simple questions?.
How can you tell the religion of a person during an autopsy?.
Where did you read that the Israelis said "that the Palestinians had enough wheelchairs"?.
Why did the Rachel Corrie dock at Ashdod and unload without anybody getting hurt?.
Could it be that there was no armed Turkish Muslims on board, or is it that at last they have realised that if they hit an Israeli soldier they are going to get hit back but a little bit harder. It takes awhile to get through to some peope
Anybody that abseils down a rope to the deck of a boat carrying hundreds of Muslim terrorists armed with ironbars, deserves a medal.
How can you say that Rudd and Garrett are not responsible for 4 deaths in the insulation program, they were in charge and knew what was going on but covered it up.
What stupidity
Marilyn , I know they were
Marilyn , I know they were all Turkish muslims, who else would attack a single soldier with iron bars.
They were not murdered, that is only your personal version of it.
However you could answer the other lies you have been sprouting (the wheelchairs) for instance.
Rachel Corrie - options
It will be interesting to see how the Israeli military take control of the Rachel Corrie. They do have to make a decision - either way it may not look good for Israel.
If they do what they did before (storm the ships with violent intent) then all hell will break out internationally.
If they take the sensible approach and non violently disable, or take control of the ship in a civil manner, then that will leave them open to criticism for not doing similar in the first place, thus contradicting their insistence that their first effort was right and proper.
The silly bastards, by insisting their first effort was honky dory have only made life more difficult for themselves.
Time will tell but methinks this time (lessons learnt by all) both sides will behave with sober intent - one hopes.
"Silly bastards" is an understatement
By all accounts the Irish boat did not have fifty or more trained and organised Islamist thugs behind a screen of useful idiots, and carrying no documents at all except thousands of US dollars in cash, waiting to attack with knives, iron bars, broken bottles, stun grenades and guns. Just the useful idiots. And the Israelis did not have toy guns. Hence no violence.
Hence no violence. Just like five of the six boats in the convoy last week and all previous boats trying to pull publicity stunts over the last few years.
No Hamas on board
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/03/gaza-flotilla-attack-henning-mankell
They were people from every corner of the world and the US boy with 4 bullets in his brain at close quarters was not Hamas.
The problem is that people believe the Israeli view of Hamas, as there are only 5 million Palestininans in the Jewish run concentration camps and they are confined to Gaza, just how the fuck do teh shill think they go out and managed to get to Turkey?
Are you going to say that every protestor who was shot at and kidnapped is a liar?
Marilyn, Today in the SMH
Marilyn, Today in the SMH Michael Carlton (another 3rd. rate journalist) wrote “The blockade of Gaza is a human catastrophe. It has created a ghetto of despair for 1.5 million people”.
That is well short of the 5 million you talk about.
Also in the SMH today it stated, Not everyone inside Gaza blames Israel for the hardships. Anecdotal accounts suggest that dissatisfaction with the Hamas regime is on the rise as the organisation struggles to deliver on its fundamental promise to raise living standards and improve people's quality of life.
''They only give things to people who are members of Hamas,'' says Zaid Khader, an unemployed 46-year-old father of seven who lost his supermarket and three-storey home during last year's war.''Yes, I blame Israel, but with Hamas they only look after their friends.
Everything is distributed by them according to who is their friend and who is not.
''He also says: ''I would like to see the international groups deal directly with the people of Gaza.
We call the donors to come straight to help us, not to give the aid to Hamas.
Not to give them the money to distribute.''
So you see Marilyn, even if Israel let all of the stuff in, the people who need it most would not get it.
Hamas are a bunch of animals.
Read and be afraid.
More like Apart-Hate methinks
Marilyn: An interesting read; although I can appreciate the writer's (another self hating Jew no doubt) Nazi analogy, and Yossi's reasons for presenting same, I would ague that Israel's manic obsession with security, control (both physical and mental) and enforcement of same more closely resembles Apart-Hate South Africa.
Actually I wrote stuff about it the other day for this forum, but I don't think I'll bother posting it.
The guts of the "stuff" could be expressed in the following terms:
Myth and delusion (God's own country).
Dehumanisation
Justification
Control
Obedience
Exploitation
Arrogance
Brutality
All of which are the consequences of greed and fear resulting in a siege mentality that fosters ever increasing processes for control and punishment. In short a paradox where the security processes imposed deliver the opposite expectations, resulting in an uncontrollable vortex of aggression
Sadly, if allowed to continue the dehumanisation process becomes a natural way of life - observing it is like watching someone with eczema scratching at scabs - after a while they do it quite unconsciously; it becomes a bad habit.
I disagree with the Nazi comparison and I more than doubt that Israel will end up like Germany in May 1945 having exterminated millions of innocents.
However judging by Israel's present behaviour and the aforementioned Dr Meyer's observations I would not be surprised if Israel was to end up more like South Africa post Apart-Hate.
Fortunately in SA the "arrogant Boer" eventually foresaw the inevitable; today in Israel the brutal right minority controlling the show have yet to wake up to the bleeding obvious.
South Africa of course made a choice, a reasonable (just) choice yet there is much to critise about the journey they have began. Sadly after many years of both habitual and brutual dehumanisation it will take a long time for the inter-generational baggage to be discarded - but that's another discussion.
Marilyn , Please stop
Marilyn , Please stop reading this crap and start reading the truth for a change.
Read this You might learn something, although I think the figures will be too accurate for you.
Here we go again
Marilyn , Just where are the concentration camps in Gaza?.
Do all 5 million peaceful Palestinians live in camps or do a lot of them with money and influence live in nice houses?.
How many Palestinians are employed making rockets?.
Could you pinpoint them on a map, I thought it was Hamas who ran Gaza.
Mankell said he would take part in the campaign again. He said: "Of course – in a year's time there is a plan to return. And then there could be hundreds of boats. And what will the Israelis do then? Release a nuclear bomb to stop us?".
If there are hundreds of boats next year, things are going to get very nasty for these morons. Mankell was there to promote his new book.
What normal person would take a 4 year old boy on a boat knowing full well what was going to happen.
Now some newspapers are calling the Pro-Palestinian activists "aid workers". Why can't they call them by their real name Muslin Terrorists.
A bloody nuisance
Sorry to be a bloody nuisance about this thing but here is a site dedicated to the truth and is reporting the bloody nuisance facts as they emerge.
I believe this thing is a critically important issue. It is perhaps the most important development in the Israel/Islamist conflict since at least Camp David Mark1 or even the Yom Kippur War. But not for the reasons the Israel bashers here and elsewhere think.
This thing has everything. A horrible but foggy incident. The immediate rush to judgement and to accuse the worst possible things against Israel and the Jews up to and including actual blood libels. The mass hysteria crowd mentality of the media and the global leftie/liberal/Islamist alliance in academia, and the blathetariat generally, behaving like glaziers on Kristallnacht. The well oiled propaganda machines of the Islamists and their allies feeding straight to starving journalists and information retailers in a hundred countries. The demonisation. The people who should know better turning away in an embarrassed silence, or worse, like Rudd, actually paying lip. The irrational rage. The moral inversion. The hateful spit in your face lying and hypocrisy. The utter disdainful disregard for the safety and lives of Israelis and Jews.
And something else. Something difficult to define. Something beyond merely ignoring the facts as they emerge or at best treating them as a bloody nuisance. It is an actual anger with the facts. Something quite spiteful and malevolent and pretty terrible to behold.
How many times has this happened before? Remember the "Jenin massacre" mass sick fantasy? Remember that poor kid Hamas put up against a wall and cruelly murdered on film as a propaganda stunt? Remember the white hot rage from the blathetariat as the truth came out?
So why is it so important this time? Here's why. It's because people like me all over the world have finally had enough. You can sense it. Israel will do what it has to do to protect its people, and those in the West who have never missed an opportunity to show how much they love dead Jews can shove it in a very dark place.
Actually I lied. I'm not at all sorry to be a bloody nuisance.
There's truth and there's irony
A site dedicated to the truth, who are they Geoff?
Could they be this mob?
I love your sense of irony Geoff.
As expected, as the stories of the passengers emerge it appears the claims of Mark Regev et al are, as usual, a cynical manipulation of the truth.
Regev claimed that 5 ships were taken without violence. The passengers disagree although none were critically injured. One one ship a survivor of the USS Liberty was shot with a paint ball. If sticks are deadly weapons why not paint ball guns?
I'm not going to waste too much time on this one for so far the stories are similar.
One poor victim was shot 4 times in the head and once in the chest - that was not self defence, that was an assassination.
Anyway if you pay attention (I would not recommend the Zionist backed site Geoff recommended) to what the survivors say then I reckon we'll get the picture - as expected.
Anyway if the Israeli's are telling the truth why not an open and transparent independent commission? After all they claim they did absolutely nothing wrong, therefore they should have nothing to hide.
One poor journo was tied up for 24 hours and not allowed to use the toilet. The IDF guy told him to wet his pants.
"...Israel is dehumanising itself through its treatment of Palestinians, and this will be its downfall”
We can now include Britons, Turks, Yanks, Australians and anyone who disagrees with their selfishness in this dehumanisation.
The dehumanisation continues and will continue for as long we the morons can get away with it...
PS. Geoff, it's going to take a lot more than a dodgy website to spin this one, I'm a little surprised you didn't declare the obvious...mmmmm.
Zionist Federation of Australia
Sorry guys the link thingy on my browser doesn't appear to work:
Here's the link for the above post:
http://www.internetengagement.com.au/
or the Zionist Federation of Australia.
I'm sure we can rely on a fair and balanced coverage of the massacre (irony).
It is also interesting Geoff's honest site (sic) does not appear to identify with the above Federation at all - was does this not surprise me (rhetorical).
Main Australian Jewish communal body
You have a problem with the ZFA, Justin?
Because if you do, you have a problem with Australian Jews.
It is also interesting Geoff's honest site (sic) does not appear to identify with the above Federation at all - was does this not surprise me (rhetorical).
I honestly have no idea what you mean by this, Justin.
The Song Remains the Same
Typical Geoff Pahoff "immediate rush to judgement" or, more accurately, equivalency.
Seems that if one has concerns regrading the utter impartiality of the Zionist Federation of Australia on this matter one automatically has "a problem with Australian Jews". I suppose that given I have questioned the Australian Catholic Church's impartiality (when investigating the actions of its clergy) that I "have a problem with Australian Catholics"?
Simple logic really: question the ZFA = "problem' with Australian Jewery; question any statement of the Australian Catholic Bishops Conference (ACBC) = problem with Australian Catholics. Simple.
Ineresting that the link bewtween "Flottila Facts", the Community Internet Engagement Project and the Zionist Federation of Australia was not ever made plain by Geoff - given that he asserted this was "a site dedicated to the truth [...] reporting the bloody nuisance facts" . In historiographical circles such background information forms part of source criticism. In Pah-historiographical circles such is just "a bloody nuiscance" to be put aside.
That just might fit the definition of disingenuous. Then again, perhaps Geoff was just ignorant.
Father Park
ZFA - Flotilla Farce
The ZFA will be reporting the facts at they emerge, mmmmm.
One of the sad realities that it becoming bleeding obvious to the world at large is that the Israelis cannot be trusted. They manipulate the truth, leave stuff out and tell down right lies. They don't have a monopoly on that however.
However that did not stop me from perusing the site to discover that the material is standard Zionist fare, linking to articles that support their world view - you would be hard pressed finding any balance or any consideration for the Palestinians.
In short, I would argue the site was set up as part of the Zionist spin machine to help dampen the flack.
The fact that the site makes no mention whatsoever of its relationship to the ZFA is suspicious and I can only assume the ZFA reckoned a ZFA banner would prejudice their cause.
Anyway I sent them a comment (by e-mail as their comments box is closed, mmmm), let's see if they publish it .
I have no idea Geoff why you left the ZFA bit out of you post, but it is consistent with the way the Zionist spin machine operates, as such one must treat same with healthy scepticism. As I did with the photo below, so what a photo of a guy with a knife.
Speaking of photos Geoff and Alan what do you think about "one shot two kills" ? - you guys have been totally silent on that one.
I note Geoff you use terms such as "nutcase", " filth" etc to describe those those you consider against your interests.
What term would you use to describe the IDF lads who produce and accept material that depicts shooting pregnant women in the stomach, and other disgusting stuff. I have never in all my years seen something as disgusting as that, but it is consistent with a war mindset - dehumanising the enemy makes it easier to kill them - even pregnant women and children.
I can't think of a term to describe these fine young Jewish men, I suppose they have created a new category of depravity all of it's own. Well done lads, er morons, er ...
It does, however, give us an in-sight into the sick and twisted mind of the IDF and last week was an example, rather than disable the boats they chose violence.
So far the statements of the peace activists are consistent and expose the Zionist spin machine as being just that. I'll take the world of eyewitnesses not the opinion of PR people.
PS. "one shot two kills" - when I show that to ordinary punters how do you think they feel Geoff - how did you feel?
Other worldly
I have never in all my years seen something as disgusting as that,
Justin, you have had an astonishingly sheltered life. Where? In a cave on Mars with a blind fold on and your fingers in your ears while wrapped in 500 kg of cotton wool?
Survival (Extermination) 101 - Women and Children first
Oh dear Geoff not again.
Maybe we look at things at different levels. But that image strikes at the heart of humanity itself, that which we love and cherish above all, and that which every red blooded man would defend till his last breath (by whatever means).
It infers the genocide of Muslims, an intregal part of our humanity, yet once again your comment appears to be a childish (embarrassed) attempt to defend the indefensible.
I asked you earlier what feeling you had about that image.
Geoff you have just, in your own predictable manner, informed the world that you feel absolutely nothing at all. An now you add another number to your internet tatoo of insentitivity. Well done lad.
I was taught by the old man that it is ALWAYS women and children first - sad that the IDF has displaced the survival theme with the extermination theme.
All together now ...
"All Together Now" - Typical Zionist CRAP
At least there is one Israeli who is prepared to show a little maturity although the mispelling of patience was an little punny.
Link following:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2010/06/04/israeli-governments-media-madness
Peace loving Freedom Flotilla
One of the peace activists on the deck of the Mavi Marmara photographed just before the Israelis attempted to board armed with paintball guns (so that they could mark the "troublemakers"). This guy is one, Sheikh Muhammad Al-Hazmi, apparently an MP from Yemen or Kuwait or somewhere.
It really is rank how grots everywhere have managed to blame the Israelis for this ugly scene. It is a form of moral inversion typical of Israel bashers here and elsewhere. As the grots condemning Israel to hell (and not Turkey which sent this filth in the first place or the dozen other Moslem countries that sent teams of this filth) have difficulty distinguishing simple concepts such as right and wrong, then you can be assured your opinions will continue to be treated with studied contempt.
DNP Dup Rich Suicide as a means of civil disobedience
It is frustrating how Western public opinion works.
Ten deaths is nothing comapred to the hundreds of babies who die from preventable illnesses in the Gaza strip and other war zones every day.
The people in the boats are not fools. They know what war zones are like, and the risks they took. Soldiers are trained to kill, they boarded a hostile ship, adrenalin pumping and performed exactly as should be expected.
We in the West don't really comprehend the evil that is war. Nor do we care, as long as it is waged on far-away shores. If we did, we never would have invaded Afghanistan or Iraq.
It works both ways
The USS Liberty - eyewitness reports.
Mistaken identity?
Mistaken identity?
The longest accidental attack in naval history:
Mistaken identity?
Geoff's comments re the above tragedy:
"Oh dear, Justin. Not the USS Liberty again. Of course the Israelis attacked the Liberty. They had to. It was a preemptive strike. The boat was caught red handed about to bomb the King David Hotel."
I'm sure the victims and families of the USS Liberty would find that very comforting and hilarious. Not only do you make light of Israel's self confessed stupidity (at best) you marry it with Irgun terrorism. Well done.
Geoff writes: "Justin, the allegation that the attack on Liberty was deliberate (or, alternatively was a false flag operation, as has been alleged here) is the work of nutcase conspiracy theorists."
Your flippant dismissal of the tragedy and your claim that the victims were/are "nutcases" was (sadly) revealing. Do you not think that such a comment trivialising their tragic and unnecessary slaughter would not offend them and their families? Not only Jews experience personal tragedy, we all do and we all remember and we all hurt - and it never goes away.
What difference is there between the emotions of a Jewish family or any other family that loses a loved one through violence? Tell me Geoff, please tell me.
Geoff concludes:
"Justin, your comments about the Holocaust are untrue and deeply offensive."
Mmmmmm
I assume you refer to my header - Was the holocaust pre-emptive? Such a question was not intended to hurt you Geoff, rather, a provocative (tasteless) and deliberate invitation for you to show a bit of empathy - for your "best friends".
You didn't.
And now we find ourselves lesser men, belittled by our marriage of tastlessness and insensitivity.
Max's massive manic monumental massacre.
Chief: Max we have a big problem.
Max: What's that Chief? Don't worry, nothing I can't fix, mission accomplished.
Chief: That's what I'm afraid of Max. Now listen...we have a flotilla full of terrorists pretending to be peace activists carrying humanitarian aid to those low lifes in the Plaza. Max I want you to stop those ships and only use force if you have to. They could be carrying deadly weapons like chairs, knives and ankle biters, so be careful not to allow them to start a nasty incident.
Max: Consider the mission accomplished Chief. Oh, by the way Chief how do I stop those ships if I can't blow the shit out of them?
Chief: You simply pull your rubber ducky up close to theirs and ask for permission to take over their ship. Max, you must not frighten them for that will make them panic, got that, we don't want nervous types getting all pissed off. If you stuff this up we are going to look really really stupid - got that!!!!
Max: Can do Chief, but what if they tell us to fuck off, what then?
Chief: In that case all you have to do is disable their boats and take them under tow. It's not very hard at all to knock out a propeller or rudder. Either way we can do this without hurting anybody.
Max: Gotcha Chief, consider the mission accomplished.
Chief: You already said that... Max.
You see that's what Max could have done according to a number of ex IDF guys - but he didn't.
Max: Hey Chief, should I take me water wings in case I fall overboard?