Many people will say that Israel's attack on the Gaza Freedom Flotilla was an act of self-defence, a prevention of supplies reaching those who would attack it. Maybe the Israelis merely intended to commandeer the leading Turkish vessel, but something has gone terribly wrong. The result has been Israeli Navy Seals firing guns at a boatload of civilians who defended themselves against the boarding party.
Depending on which reports you believe, the number of dead killed by the Israelis numbers between eight and fourteen, and many more wounded. The deaths have been condemned around the world The European Union has condemned the attack, and an emergency session of the UN Security Council is now debating a response.
Whatever your opinion, it's obvious that Israel is much less kindly regarded today than yesterday. No doubt, over the next few days, we're going to hear of many calls for revenge. I hope we don't hear reports of acts of retribution, but am afraid that the IDF's actions yesterday are going to be the catalyst for new levels of bloodshed in the Middle East.
Let's hope that the will for peace is strong enough to overcome this fiasco. I worry that it won't , and that much more blood is about to be spilled.
Legal right to exist
Michael , Israel does not have a legal right to exist.. I can tell you something, Israel will be there long after generations of your family have gone.
Just get used to it.
No right to exist
Alan, thank you for the correction: or irrelevant.
Zionists should learn from the fact that everything they have to say in favour of or in defence of Zionism is false, deceptive or irrelevant.
Again, thanks.
Incidentally, irrelevancy may be a kind of deception.
But I thought that someone might respond to my invitation to point out where I'm wrong. And I really meant in a material sense.
The assertion that Israel has a right to exist is false, and every other assertion in the piece by Geoff that I was responding to is false or deceptive.
Can someone say something true, honest, and relevant in favour of or in defence of Zionism?
Please avoid deceptive whinges and deceptive accusations.
Oops
It is not false or deceptive that Israel is a flourishing market economy producing technical innovation.
And it is not false or deceptive that Israel has a population as educated as anywhere in Europe or North America.
Therefore my own statement that everything Geoff wrote in his piece Sign up here is false or deceptive is false.
But the first of those statements becomes deceptive rhetoric when the words "to the benefit of the wider world" are added, as they were. It insinuates that the existence of Israel is to the benefit of the wider world.
Calling all Israel bashers ... Hello? Are you there?
For those who dismiss Islamist (or for that matter Islamic) hatred of Jews as a distant foreign thing that they can safely brush under the carpet and ignore as they refine their filthy and thoroughly dishonest "anti-Zionist" diatribes, check out the site of the Islamic Dawah of Australia. This from just a couple of days ago, and I found after about 30 seconds search. To my knowledge this has not been reported anywhere. As I say, I found it myself without following any links. This stuff is so common, even from an Australian Islamic education body, it is probably not worth a comment anywhere.
Australia has a problem. Europe has problem.The world has a problem.
Anything to say, Israel bashers? Anything at all?
Extremists everywhere.
Geoff: "Of course you will find extremist Jewish voices as well if you go looking for them. The usual response from the Israel bashers is to find some lunatic saying something idiotic somewhere.."
That works both ways does it not? And quite often the extremists are heard above all others; but what about the punters?
Most Palestinians want peace with Israel
Large Israeli and Palestinian Majorities Indicate Readiness for Two-State Solution Based on 1967 Borders
Sadly extremists are driven, not by peace, but conflict. I would argue that if we get rid of the extremists FROM BOTH SIDES!!!!!!!! then we may be able to set a starting point for rational and pragmatic negotiations.
Geoff Pahoff really annoys
Geoff Pahoff really annoys me some times. He moans about Israeli commandos injured by the largely unarmed people bravely defending their boat, as if it was their fault rather than the armed to the teeth Israelis.
Geoff, if the Israelis had left the boat alone in the first place, noone(!!) would have been injured!!
Or was the thought that medical aid might ease the suffering for Palestinians women and children in the Gaza Ghetto, undergoing collective punishment at the hands of the lunatic Netanyahu, just too much for these horrible, miserable people?
שלושת הטרורים
Here's another bit of Islamist propaganda.
The Three Terrors sing "Jihad is Fun".
I happen to think the world will be a much poorer place without Jews.
A Kinky Jew - hehe - and others
A always get a kick out of this - one for you Geoff.
And of course this is a classic.
And this song is a favourite, written by a Jew (Jerome Kern). I heard my first wife's grandfather (Joseph Abrahams) sing it one night, and ended up with tears in me eyes. He sung it beautifully.
Yes indeed Geoff, yes indeed.
The Church of Absolute Faith cherishes all of its congregation - close on 7,000,000,000 of us now - and still growing.
Oooops
Your a f*ckwit JO:
This is the classic - it really does tell a story .
Geoff Pahoff:" I happen to
Geoff Pahoff:" I happen to think the world would be a far poorer place without Jews"
Geoff, its about an aggressive colonising ideology; Zionism, not "race". Its not" Jews" that are deplored, it's the unrepentently inhuman conduct derived of Zionism Israeli Rightists, particularly as self and american proclaimed representatives of "civilised" values, compared to and against, the despised, disempowered Palestinian "other".
The world might also be a poorer place for the loss of several thousand Palestinians and Lebanese lately, provided that one accepts that these peope are also "human".
Don't you think?
Meanwhile, the Islamists said exactly what they intended to do
IHH boss, Bulent Yildirim, on board the Marvera, gives the crowd its marching orders, and the Islamists record it for posterity.
"Millions of martyrs marching to Gaza". "Do not be cowards in the record of Allah" "You must not turn back". "If you send commandos we will throw them in the sea and you will be humiliated in front of the world".
Geez it must be hard for the Israel haters to keep the line and a straight face. There is only one way it is possible. Religion. Or a nasty perversion of it at least.
Noticed how angry the Israel bashing grubs around the place get as this material comes to light? They just hate it. On the other thread there's a conversation about religion. There is not a shadow of doubt that the Israel baiting grubs, such as that disendorsed sad piece of filth, Julia Irwin, for example,and her grubby lying cheer squad, are of an identical mentality to the most irrational and vile religious sect. Often they claim to be "atheists" (whatever that means). Bullshit.They actually hate the truth. To present them with facts sends them into a spitting rage as surely as a suggestion to an Islamist whackjob that women are equal human beings and perhaps there isn't a paradise with a bunch of virgins on tap.
It's all propaganda! , they squeal like rabid pigs. To attempt to deprive them of their fantasies is like taking a bone from a pack of starving dingos.
It is everywhere
"... its about an aggressive colonising ideology; Zionism, not "race". Its not" Jews" that are deplored, it's the unrepentently inhuman conduct derived of Zionism Israeli Rightists..."
If only this was true, Paul.
So far those aggressive, colonising Zionist Rightists have withdrawn from the Sinai in return for a peace treaty with Egypt (Begin), unilaterally and unconditionally withdrawn from the security zone in southern Lebanon (Barak) and unilaterally and unconditionally withdrawn from Gaza (Netanyahu).
They offered the Palestinians a state in 1947 (Ben Gurion). They offered to withdraw from territories occupied in 1967 (Meir and Dayan) and again in 1973 (Meir). They have repeatedly offered the Golan Heights back to Syria in return for peace, including as recently as last year. The PA has been offered a state, including Gaza, the West Bank, a connecting corridor and the Arab sections of Jerusalem twice in the nineties and again in 2008 in a face to face meeting between the Israeli PM and the PA Chairman.
"Its not "Jews" that are deplored."
Come off it Paul. Fair suck of the saveloy. Of course it is Jews that are deplored.
Of course it is Jews who are hated with an intensity straight out of the Nazi era. It is in "pro-Palestinian" and Islamist commentary, and that of their Western admirers, everywhere. It is mainstream.
Islamist anti-Semitism is thoroughly soaked in many of the most inflammatory themes that initially made possible the atrocities of Crystal Night and its horrific aftermath during the Holocaust.
For example, the pervasive use of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion with its perennial theme of the "Jewish conspiracy for world domination;" or the medieval blood-libel imported to the Muslim world from Christian Europe; or the vile stereotypical image of the Jews as a treacherous, rapacious, and bloodthirsty people engaged in a ceaseless plotting to undermine the world of Islam.
This can not be honestly denied. Of course you will find extremist Jewish voices as well if you go looking for them. The usual response from the Israel bashers is to find some lunatic saying something idiotic somewhere. But to seek to conflate lunatic fringe opinions with those of "Zionists" is not only irrational and pig ignorant but likely an indication of antisemitism. A bit like saying Madoff is an example of Jewish deceit. Would anybody who suggested Heini Becker, or his son, to pick an example at random, was typical of Australian public opinion be taken seriously?
On the other hand, vicious and violent antisemitism, and genocidal intent, is very typical of Islamist opinion throughout the Middle East. Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran, and their Western apologists, make no bones about it. They say so at every opportunity. It is a foundation of their ideology as surely as it was of Nazism with which they share common roots. Not just the Islamists either. It is common in Syria, Jordan, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, even Malaysia and Indonesia.
No person of goodwill and honesty can deny this. It is there for everyone who could be bothered to see for themselves.
That is why the views of commentators who choose to overlook this are so often regarded with suspicion by people like me.
Where are the protests?
As usual, former Labor government minister Barry Cohen has a pretty good handle on these issues. Here he is in this morning's Australian.
The question that comes to mind is, did anyone notice? Most of these massacres received only a cursory glance from the media but few asked questions. Nobody demanded an independent inquiry.
There was some tut-tutting but little else. Where were the demonstrations, protests, marches and letters to the editor by those compassionate souls who demonstrate whenever brutal Western regimes commit an action of which they disapprove? They were nowhere to be seen.
...
In the election that followed, Hamas, committed to the destruction of Israel and the killing of all Jews, won comfortably. They consolidated their position with open warfare with Fatah and about 2000 Palestinians were killed. If they'd do that to fellow Palestinians, imagine the fate of Israelis.
...
What was uncharacteristic was for the Israelis to believe that they were dealing with followers of Gandhi. If not, why had they chosen as their weapon of choice paintball guns? Let me run that past you again; paintball guns. The miracle is that no Israelis were killed. They were, however, brutally beaten with iron bars. Naturally the usual suspects in the left-liberal media screamed "disproportionate". What should the Israelis have done? Allowed themselves to be beaten to death or brought out their Monopoly boards?
Israel's critics forget that Hamas is at war with Israel. The hypocrisy is breathtaking. But the prize for the hypocrite of the century must surely go to Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. He accused Israel of "state terrorism, a bloody massacre" and called the attack as being "like 9/11 for Turkey". That is obscene! All this is a bit rich coming from a country that refuses to acknowledge or have an inquiry into the alleged genocide of one million Armenians during World War I.
Nor did he mention the nonstop war between Turkey and its Kurdish minority that has resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of the latter.
...
Right on, old comrade. I couldn't have put it better myself.
A brother...
Never thought to see it but Bob Wall has a brother: Geoff Wall.
Welcome to your own thread Geoff. Will you keep it going for as many months? Will you keep posting links?
Of course you will: this is your life.
Father Park
Typical zionist shill
Just because those things are happening in other parts of the world as we are all aware and as are reported on and protested against does not let the thugs in Israel off the hook.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/ultra-orthodox-parents-charged-with-discrimination-to-begin-two-week-prison-terms-1.296730
Racism and apartheid anyone?
Cold bloodied murder
Marilyn, Well another 26 Iraqis killed and 50 odd injured in 2 car bombs by their own people, all no doubt with the blessing of Allah as he prepares another 144 virgins for the martyrs.
Now when you talk about thugs I hope you include these peace loving Muslims in that category.
Nah, there will not be a word from you, these Arabs that load up cars with 80 kilos of explosive and aim it at their own people are the scum of the earth.
As long as the Arabs continue like this, they will forever sit in the dust with their arses hanging out, and continue to live in the dark ages.
Then of course we have that other mob of halfwits the Iranians, who if they launch anything against Israel, they will not have arses to sit on.
If Allah is so good why are Arabs dying at the hands of Arabs?.
Anyone for roast rabbit?
Here's some more "propaganda" this time from Leftie/Liberal Central, your ABC, apparently seized by a fleeting moment of lucidity
The French broadcasting regulator is banning television produced by Gaza's Hamas regime on the grounds it incites hatred.
With the sound turned down, one children's show on Al-Aqsa Television looks like a new take on Bugs Bunny, but Assoud the rabbit is far less benign than his carrot-chomping colleague.
Last year the show's Islamist producers in Gaza killed him off on the set as the victim of an Israeli bombing.
The rabbit's dying words were a message to Palestinian children to glorify his death as a martyr.
"Tell the children Assoud has died, as a hero, a martyr," he said.
Stories like this - with their messages of martyrdom and death - are commonplace on Al-Aqsa Television, which is owned by Hamas.
...
"Repeatedly on Al-Aqsa Television you have religious leaders who talk about genocide of the Jews, you have religious and political leaders who talk about going to war against the West," said Palestinian Media Watch director Itamar Marcus.
...
Al-Aqsa Television says the CSA ban will cost it 70 per cent of its viewers, but it will continue broadcasting in Africa and the Middle East.
How long before the world wakes up to the fact that these life-hating lunatics are not just a threat to Israel and the Jews but to everybody everywhere? How long before someone, anyone, from the leftie/liberal blatherteriot, here and elsewhere, concedes that maybe, just maybe, this poisonous ideology and depraved culture has perhaps made some contribution to the middle east quagmire and that if it was on their doorstep they too would expect their government to do something to defend the people?
I know! I've got a good idea! Lift the Israeli/Egyptian blockade of Gaza. Turn the place into one huge Iranian aircraft carrier. That should fix everything.
Idiots.
Predictable
We get the propaganda we deserve. Some of us seem to go looking for it and, when we troll it up, swallow it and regurgitate it verbatim. Doesn't have to be Israeli, doesn't have to be "western"; it just has to suit our view. Then it matters not that it's "Islamist".
So predictable...
Perhaps I should adduce some of the Mining lobby's ads as incontravertible proof that all the big holes in this country will be filled in because of a proposed tax?
Father Park
The West is sick
There is an illness in the West. It has already gripped much of the self proclaimed "liberal/left" and the media. Europe has probably been lost. Again. One of the symptoms is what Orwell would have called the inability to see what is front of your nose.
Wilful blindness. All over the West there are people still proclaiming that this grubby stunt was some kind of a peaceful humanitarian mission. The extraordinary thing is that throughout much of the Moslem world the truth that this was a violent provocation by determined Islamists with terrorist affiliations using useful idiots as cover is being widely proclaimed and widely celebrated. Only in the West is so much of the so called "free" press so set on lying. The hypocrisy and dishonesty is sick and sickening.
At least the Islamists are honest.
Yeah such peace and light
http://www.counterpunch.org/lindorff06162010.html
Six o'clock news world exclusive
Remember this dirty bugger? Ken O'Keefe. That's the guy from the "flotilla" who showed up at Istanbul airport four days after the Mavi Marmara incident with his face still covered in dried blood. Yuk. Alright. You can accept the guy and the shower have a life long mutual hostility going on but surely the toe rag could have washed his face on the plane. Spare a thought for the other passengers.
Explains why the bludger was thrown out of the US Marines. Can you imagine sharing a barracks with him? Perhaps he was a biological weapons experiment that went wrong.
Marilyn,(of course), linked to his dull eyed tirade here.
O'Keefe has form. He was a "human shield" organiser back in 2003. Until he was tossed out of Bagdad, that is.. Seems he was too dirty even for Saddam.
However Israeli television has scooped the world with an exclusive interview with Ken O'Keefe where the peace activist details his heroic fight.
Say what you like..
Some of you can all say what you like about Marilyn Shepherd.
You might not like her harshness at times, but she is far in advance of some of you when it comes to recognising a situation for what it is.
Its her forthrightness in presenting unpleasant and obscure facts concerning cherished beleifs that's disliked: She'll call a spade a spade, and its unpopular when sacred cows are in her sights, but its right that Australians do not wallow in sentimental illusions inculcated into them through incessant press and media.
She's convinced me that the world's reality is far different to the fantasy world of the six oclock news with its "us versus them" jingoisitic fantasies and phony distractions from reality.
What Israel committed was an act of terrorism so blatant that it that would have embarrassed Yassar Arafat. It says it did not mean to kill people, it was all "an accident".
No.
If/while there was the slightest risk that anyone, not just civilians, were in jeopardy, there was no excuse .
In fact, there was no conceivable justification for boarding this ship at all, under under international law.
Why not call this spade a spade?
She's convinced me that the world's reality is far different to the fantasy world of the six oclock news with its "us versus them" jingoisitic fantasies and phony distractions from reality.
She sure got that right. Most of the bigotted, gutless, pathetic excuses for "journalists" in this country are still reporting the Hamas tools on the Mavi Marmara were peaceful activists on a humanitarian mission.
Geoff
Ken O'Keefe was correct to protest the attack on Iraq, one could hardly call it a great success and everything we all said has come true for the poor Iraqi people.
As for Israel, it is a terrorist state formed by terrorist gangs in breach of resolution 181 of the UN general assembly which was a non-binding and illegal resolution but stated that the Palestinians had their legal rights and civil rights protected.
I would far prefer Ken O'Keefe as a mate than you.
Jews pray for flotilla victims
Alan
Free the Kurds!!
Free the Kurds! Free Kurdistan !!!
To hell with imperialist Turkey! Demand an independent, sovereign and free Kurdish state now!
Resurrection
Justin I was prepared to "forget" you had actually said that, if you had as well.
I am not going to directly respond to your question anyway. You have shown here again you have a "conspiracy theorist" mind. I don't mean that in a nice way. It means that you will overlook the bleeding obvious, in this case ordinary human frailty, in favour of the elaborate and sinister. I'm sorry old son, but I believe this condition disables rational thought even in the mentally agile. You will probably think that is "contradictory". I know for sure it is not.
Try as I have, I simply cannot understand this way of thinking. I know of course it afflicts otherwise intelligent people and that it is both common and infectious. Often this sort of thing is pretty harmless, if eccentric. Like believing in astrology or ghosts. But there is no doubt it can be very dangerous, especially right now where whole cultures seem to be infected, as surely as the Nazis infected the political culture of Germany. I'm sorry old mate but it scares the hell out of me.
Justin, somewhere here you kind of gloated the whole world was with you on this. In fact, given that you are here cheering a "victory" for Marilyn I suspect you are in a very small minority indeed. In fact' one that can be counted on a Tasmanian's toes.
It might be time to change the old persona, Justin. The albatross is as dead as a Friday duck on Thursday. That dead "from the grave" thing you had going at Harry's place for a while a few years ago might be most apt in all the circumstances right now. Why not resurrect that?
Tim Blair - World Opinion - Oh Dear...
Oh dear Geoff, once again you rely on propaganda and censored blogs to "sooth" your "prejudices". And by the way, some guy named Geoff, on Tim Blair's blog, posted a link to this thread - oh dear. How embarrassing.
Hyperbole can be an effective rhetorical tool; especially when underpinned by truth; when not, it opens one to criticism, even ridicule.
Let's put a stake through the heart of your inference right away Geoff:
This from the Jewish Virtual Library - I'll leave it up to you (and any readers from Tim's blog who have cared to drop by - howzit) to massage the numbers, it would appear Geoff that once again, you have been careless. Your inference was just that, unfounded and not supported empirically. You will also note Geoff, that the numbers are old. In which direction do you think they might be headed?
Some more (old) numbers from a BBC survey.
Geoff, Marilyn didn't win, nobody won - we all lost. And that's the point I've been trying to make - Planet Earth is the loser - we have choices. We don't have to compete like lunatics if we don't want to.
Geoff, you try desperately to protect your sacred cow, but do so in a manner that belittles you, at times. Other times you're great and fun too - just the way it should be. Maybe at Tim Blair's site you can find comfort with souls of like mind, and there's nothing wrong with that. But it would be an advantage to remember that being all warm and cosy is one thing - critical, honest and sensible discussion is another. It's good to be aware of the difference.
Geoff, I would like to add that I have had, and still do have, quite a number of relationships/friendships with people of Jewish faith (you may remember a piece I dedicated to you) - and anybody who claims that Jews are tight with their cash knows squat, my Jewish client (an optometrist) is far too generous for his own good. Anyway we know racial stereotypes are crap, don't we?
In South Africa I stayed with a Jewish family for a week or so, the Levines. They had a 5 star hotel by the sea, about a days drive from East London, my digs was a splendid beach hut with all amenities and a veranda upon the sand. It was wonderful and so were they; I wrote letters to friends and family about my generous hosts. I departed their friendly embrace fat, happy and in love with the my universe.
Two days after having lived the life of Riley at the Levines, I found myself sleeping on a concrete floor inside a quick brick shed about 10 miles from East London. It was a black fella camp; housing thousands of black fellas (reasonably feed slaves from what I could make from it). The young black couple who shared their humble home with me, were also wonderful, kind and gentle. The only thing of sophisication they owned was one linen sheet, kept safe inside a red cardboard suitcase under the only bed they had, a wire frame single bed. They offered the linen sheet to me, but I assured them my sleeping bag would do fine - so did the cockroaches. I must admit I did enjoy sharing black fella space, shiny smiles inquisitve stares, songs and harmonies. I departed a little skinnier, but no less happier, although I wondered why? Why was it illegal to share a home with black fellas? I could have ended up in the slammer and they would have copped a beating.
At present mum, brother and I dine at a Jewish restaurant every Saturday night - religiously, and mum and bruv every Thursday lunchtime - religiously. Old people love their routines. We have been doing this for years. Our Jewish hosts are now our friends, gifts exchanged, family photos, and special meals made for mum, and delivered to the front door if the need be (a special favour). I mentioned to our Jewish hosts just the other day that coming to their cafe is keeping mum alive, they do make a fuss over her, and she loves it - lives for it - and it's not just because we are good customers.
My brother has been going to a Jewish doctor named Segal at Bondi ( we call him seagull with affection) for over thirty years now. Dr Segal is doing fine but some time ago bruv wasn't, and nearly died. Bruv said when he got out of hospital, and visited his doctor he was welcomed by Dr Segal a with big, great to see you alive, hug. My brother hates hugging (he's a Jerry Seinfeld), yet shined when he told me about his doctor's warm embrace.
You see Geoff, this old wombat has been all over the show, and got up to all sorts of mischief, regret none of it (and hurt no one - well almost, but they were asking for it - the will to power), and have met all types under the sun; have had wonderful times with people of all colours and race. I suppose it's easy when you don't have any sacred cows to threaten them with, I don't know, I guess I've been lucky, and would like to see everyone lucky, especially our children, all children.
If any of Tim's readers are still with us (unlikely) - this one is for you - actually, all of us.
Angel from Africa - I would like to think it will make you feel warm and cozy.
Cheers Geoff, and on leaving may I make a suggestion. Sacred cows are OK, we all have them, but they seem to thrive best when fed a wholesome diet, otherwise we find ourselves playing silly games that go just go round and round - The Game of Your Life - poor dead Audrey was begging, really begging with that one - but she meant it sincerely.
Oh, and thanks for the kindly advice re that dead albatross, you were correct dear friend (seriously). Anyway, methinks I'll be needing a big fat wombat arse to survive the kicking Tim's team will give me when they read this.
But then again I doubt whether they would have the attention span to get this far - hehe.
Take care dear friend - we shall meet again (but not at Tim's place) - will it be to our mutual joy, or our mutual shame? That choice we will have to make together.
PS
Strange
Nah, not me Justin. That guy with the link was "geoff". Not "Geoff". Nothing to do with me at all.
I'm familar with those stats. Actually they only go up to 2008. I am under no illusions about this. I expect the figures are probably even worse now.
That was not the point I was trying to make. The point was to do with "holocaust denial" and the like, and identifyng with Marilyn's view of the world, but never mind. Anyway it looks like all the posts on that subject have been deleted from Blair's site, since "geoff" linked here, for some reason. Strange.
I have a first cousin whose name is Segal and is a doctor. But his practice is in Melbourne, not Bondi, so I guess that's not him and this is an irrelevant and useless piece of information. We have however been calling him and his family "the seagulls" for over fifty years.
Seagulls are good...
Sorry Geoff re the misunderstanding; I can appreciate your sentiments re the world view thing you mention; in which case my reference to the dangers of hyperbole apply to Marilyn's comments, wouldn't you agree? (take note Marilyn).
Anyway mate, I suppose there is not a lot more we can discuss re this conflict, however, regardless of what we have written, I would like you to understand (sincerely) that I still loves ya, whether you like it or not.
Ah, yes, dangerous people
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/frightened-children/
One executes people, the other gives medical care - who are the violent cowards then.
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/foreign-ministry-warned-israel-navy-not-to-raid-gaza-flotilla-in-international-waters-1.295227
Thus, according to senior figures familiar with the details of the discussions, the Foreign Ministry urged defense officials to launch their operations to stop the flotilla only after the ships had crossed Gaza's maritime boundaries. The ministry's diplomats repeated this request on more than one occasion.
"If somebody breaks into your home and you shoot him after he enters the doorway, there's no problem in justifying this action in court," said a senior ministry official. "But if you attack the burglar while he is on his way to your house at a distance of two blocks away, then you have a problem."
A dull grey
That's a very shrewd quote, Marilyn Shepherd, concerning some very hard thinking.
The Haaretz thing seems to echo the general direction of the explanation being patched together since last week. It seems Israel must parallel America and other places: the diplomats always get elbowed aside by Defence.
Ah nothing
Wombats
"Justin I was prepared to "forget" you had actually said that,"
It's a reasonable question Geoff, and your evasiveness and trickiness is telling, and does reflect the party line
"Self hating Jews" was not doubt a slur against Jews who did not obey the party propoganda - dished by Jews against Jews. If you take offence at the term Geoff I would have a look at the modus operandi of the party. The party does your cause no good yet you appear to delight in their childish games. Telling.
"Why not resurrect that"
Nah, actually I rather like wombats, nice little buggers, I can climb down a burrow and use me arse as a front door. Come and visit me sometime but and you need not kick me front door in, unless of course it turns you on.
Cheers
The Will To Power
My reply to that was:
Israeli leadership signalled well in advance they were prepared to use force if met with force/resistance - if you are preparing a military operation against people (filth) who have the potential for violence (as reported by intelligence), then surely you would be planning for the worst, and hoping for a "bloodless coup". Not planning for a bloodless coup and hoping the filth will behave itself.
If the Israeli leaders were genuinely under the impression that a bloodless coup was possible while dismissing the intelligence (which flagged violent possibilities) then the planners of this debacle should take full responsibility for their recklessness - and fall on their swords. It aint gunna happen.
Instead they claim to have done everything perfectly (under the conditions) and blame the activists for behaving in a manner their very own intelligence warned them about.
And this is where the "carefully planned ambush" theory breaks down. An ambush infers a surprise, something unexpected or unknown - the only thing unknown by the Israeli planners was that their own capacity for stupidity was greater than the stupidity displayed by those activists (on the big boat) who violently repelled the initial boarding party - which ignited that Rambo response. When stupidity meets stupidity then expect the worst.
You see, if it was a carefully prepared (violent) ambush, then they blew it, and sprung the trap (too early) when the initial boarding party pulled along side. Now, a bona fide carefully planned ambush would have had the troops safe on board where they were more vulnerable amongst 600 or so passengers. Think about it.
Max: Hey Chief, Chief, they're chucking rocks at me, ouch.
Chief: Max, it's a trap, they want you to play their game - don't, what ever you do don't board that ship. Who knows what lunatics we'll be up against, they want blood and guts, dead bodies and publicity - Max, don't give it to them. Retreat and execute plan B immediately.
Max: What's that chief? Blood, guts, give it to em, execute, you bet Chief, mission accomplished - over and out.
Chief: Max, Max, Max Ma. Oh shit.
Did Israel want violence? No, Did they want obedience? Yes. Were they prepared for violence? Yes. Could they have avoided violence and still have met their publicly stated objective? Yes. Did Israel want to send a message to future activists? Most definitely. Did Israel have a non violent back up plan should things get ugly? Obviously not.
In short I would argue that the peaceful option was not on the table because the powers that be wanted to meet force with force (as clearly stated), and felt confident that a spin campaign would massage sympathies in their direction should things end up ugly. After all, they claimed to be dealing with violent terrorist sympathisers and kept framing things as such, post and prior the event - right. It was an extremely risky plan that totally disregarded the clear and present possibility that Murphy would show up at the party. In fact, with an operation like that it would be advisable to heed O'Reilly's Law: Murphy is an optimist.
Israel's will to power over the activists was measured by the activists will to disobey; the same dynamic that is evident in this thread. It's an ego thing that can destroy reason and foster blind stupidity and arrogance.
That's obvious.
Geoff, for actually attempting to answer the question Marilyn has insisted we award you a DSO. I thought she meant Distinguished Service Order, but she mumbled something that sounded terribly like: Dick Shot Off.
If I were you I'd give presentation day a miss - enjoy your videos.
And here comes the "reverse flotilla" ...
Another great development.
"But it’s here that we really get into the shameless hypocrisy of the Turks, because while they criticize us day and night, they are oppressing the Kurds and silencing the world when it comes to recognition of the Armenian Genocide.”
...
"Our plan is to deliver much-needed humanitarian assistance to the Kurds of Turkey, who by the way outnumber Israelis and Palestinians combined,” he said.
Excellent.
No doubt the Western "peace activists" will be lining up to join this worthy venture now that they're fresh home from Istanbul. No?
"We wave our own knives..."
Thanks Justin, for linking that. I have some elderly relatives upstairs at the moment and it has reminded me to show them that great video so that we can all have a good old fashioned laugh together.
The video is of course brilliant. I love the way it has really got up the nose of the Israel bashers. ("Blatantly racist") Absolutely precious. What imbecilic dickheads. The icing on the cake is the way it was released by Israeli government officials as part of a package to foreign journalists followed up by the faux "apology" a day later. Genius! Eat your heart out John Cleese. The Guardian's reaction was exquisite. I can just picture those po-faced, supercilious, fake/trendy/lefty Englishmen earnestly reporting how Israel "has been forced to apologise" without the slightest realisation they are the butt of a very big public joke and they have made giant fools of themselves. Again. Chronic condition, come to think of it.
Talk about "not getting it".
I know it is out of character for me but I will be blunt.
No apology. In fact here it is again for those who missed it. Thanks again, Justin.
The answer
I'll answer your question, Justin.
On 1 June, I said this here:
My early call is that the Israelis walked into a carefully planned ambush. Israeli intelligence was aware that this so called "aid" convoy was organised primarily by a Turkish extremist Islamist group with a history of violence and strong connections with Hamas, but they underestimated the extent and determination of the threat on the water. They thought they could snatch control of the boats from a resisting but unarmed, or at least unorganised group in a quick and bloodless coup. They were wrong. Badly wrong and that part of the world is a more dangerous place this morning for it.
It's now over a week later and I don't think there's much I can add. This is exactly what happened. The evidence is overwhelming. Even that idiot McGeough says he was told by the filth who organised this on board the main terrorist supply boat that there was going to be violence.
The Israelis knew who these vicious grubs were but they did not expect violence. They expected a continuation of the faux peace activist tactics that has been the hallmark of these stunts for the last three years. They were taken entirely by surprise.
There will be hell to pay in Israel of course. Sending elite troops on a mission for which they were completely unprepared is not a good look in any democracy and especially not Israel. Justin, Israel has a vibrant and outspoken political culture with plenty of public critics in a diverse and completely free media serving a highly literate and educated population. This has nothing to do with "self hating Jews". I am always half amused/half disgusted by foreign observers who use this fact to find material to attack Israel. What would you prefer? A Hamas-style police state? No risk of finding any dissident public voices in Gaza of course. Or pretty much anywhere else is the Islamist controlled world or most of the Islamic world for that matter.
We Con The World - nah
Mark Regev has a "funny" sense of humour - this makes him look like what he really is....and on it goes from father to son and on and on and on.
Earlier on in this thread I bastardised the term apartheid = apart - hate.
The accepted translation of the term equates to separateness however an Afrikaner friend of mine informed me that in reality apartheid meant apart-hate. I will never forget him telling me this for he said it with hatred in his eyes.
My Afrikaner mate was confused by apartheid and the processes involved which start (systematically ) from the first day at school.
He informed me that as a pre-school infant the black kids and white kids mixed freely - playing, eating, bathing and laughing without even noticing the colour of their skin. In all innocence he said he had no idea his playmates were black.
He remembers his first day at school where the distinction of colour was a compulsory topic. He was no longer allowed to play with his black mates who went off to a different school, let alone ride on the same bus or drink from the same bubbler. He always thought that was unnecessary along with much else.
Fortunately my Afrikaner mate never shed his innocence, or rather never allowed the system to strip it from him, however for survival reasons wore it in uneasy silence.
After he completed his eduction and saved a few rand he emigrated to Australia, where some years later he hooked up with a black lover. Not too long after our planet was adorned with a wee brown bundle of innocence who could look forward to an education sans the unnecessary stuff.
I lost touch with my innocent mate but one thing for sure there is a brown bundle of joy walking our planet and laughing with kids of all colour - or loving them - and on it goes and on and on and on and on- let's hope.
It was not so much the world community that dragged that bastard child apartheid from the guts of humanity, rather the sensibilities of the leaders (although there was a wee bit of kicking and screaming by some to say the least - but that's to be expected) who in spite of their god given self righteousness realised that something that can't go on for ever - won't.
The accidental activist meets a spontaneous rebel.
On a steamy Durban morning I found myself waiting for a bus with a small congregation of black fellas. The bus pulled up, and like the gentleman I pretend to be positioned myself last to climb aboard. By the time I embarked the bus was almost chockers, and the bus driver (a white fella) for some reason or another looked a little impatient, however smiled with uneasy benevolence, and even flagged me by without requesting my fare (yipee).
The bleeding obvious became apparent, when to my delight and surprise all the black fellas were laughing their tits off over my carlessness - wrong bus wrong colour. Of course JO was somewhat of his tree at the time, so all he could see was an orchestra of shiny white teeth singing that spontaneous song of innocence.
I had no idea why the white fella let me on (spontaeous resistence or did he just have a thing for albatrosses?); he could have lost his job, I could have had me wings clipped, nevertheless, it was just one of those wee moments you never forget - that moment when you find youself totally and absolutely in love with life.
Iran's Red Crescent Society
Iran's Red Crescent Society has said the Israeli blockade on Gaza will be challenged over the next few days with the possibility of Iran's Revolutionary Guard on the sidelines to protect the ships.They have said they will coordinate the operation with the International Red Cross in the hopes of getting about 30 tons of medical and other equipment through the blockade.
I am looking forward to this, it could well be the beginning of the end for Iran
An image that strikes at the heart of humanity itself ...
Yes indeed Geoff
Don't try and second guess me please Geoff, or put words into my mouth. That image is equally repugnant as the other. It just goes to prove that no mainstream race or religion is free of depraved supporters who pervert their religion for cynical reasons - history tells us so.
Althouh I would argue the likes of the "uncivilised" but gentle, innocent and trustworthy Bushman of Africa could teach us "civilized" folk a thing or two about common decency and relationship.
Lately the Bushman have been fighting their own little battle with the Botswana government that claims they are acting in the best interests of the Bushman by relocatig the Bushmen to "superior" hunting grounds - it had absolutely nothing to do with diamonds and resources.
Same shit different century.
Gaza is a prison
Some very apt words from Defense Minister Barak:
Remember him? Gilad Shalit? I doubt it. Now maybe if he was wearing a T-shirt ...
The terror cheer squads
Excellent piece from David Burchell in yesterday's Australian.
Spot on.
TWTP?
I asked a question earlier on yet it would appear it has been overlooked.
There was/is a very simple non violent solution to take control of incoming merchant ships. Gil Hoffman reported in the JPOST that a senior Israeli naval officer suggested it was a rather simple excercise to disable a ship's propellor or rudder – game over.
My question is:
Why did Israeli leadership choose the Rambo option when a more sensible and non-violent approach would have done the trick?
I would really appreciate the views of those who have bothered to contribute to this thread, for if there were alternatives (which there were) why choose a dangerous and potentially violent one, and if so why not have a plan B, should the initial Plan A boarding party be repelled, which it was.
This is not a silly question, I have alluded to this (Max's massive manic thingy) and asked the question directly, yet no one offers a reply.
Except Marilyn in her own way. Did she not go straight for the jugular and claim the operation was planned to be violent, or words to that effect. Was Marilyn's "outlandish" claim true?
Based on the operational alternatives available as outlined by the Israeli navy one can only come to conclude that Marilyn was correct from the beginning.
Now, if this is a silly proposition, a lie or propoganda then please point out where logic fails me in my suspicians that Marilyn is correct.
Come on Geoff and Alan, awake from of your dogmatic slumbers (re this military contradiction) and let's get straight to the bleeding heart, for then we will be addressing what this military operation / protest was really about.
It can be summed up in four words, can you guess what they are?
I'll give you a clue: TWTP
PS. This time I will treat silence as surrender - Marilyn wins, Marilyn was correct from the start, those pesky Jews set out to cause trouble from the start didn't they - can anybody prove Marilyn wrong??????
Please Geoff and Alan, don't let a bloody sheila get the better of you, and by default the entire male population, with logic and clarity you should be able to deconstruct Marilyn's claim - if not the world will never be the same for us blokes.
Thank you sire
Alan in particular thinks no-one can read, he keeps asking dumb questions like "where are the concentration camps in Gaza" without once recognising that Gaza is the concentration camp.
No thank you
Marilyn, Thank you for telling us that Gaza is a concentration camp, a camp run by Hamas. See it is not that hard to tell the truth.
Now what about telling where you read that the Israelis said Gaza has too many wheelchairs.
TWTP
Justin, TWTP, just what the hell "Trade Waste Treatment Plant" or "Tenesee Womens Theatre Project" got to with things.
Perhaps you can get Marilyn to answer some of the questions I have asked her, for years she has come out with outlandish statements and always refuses to tell us where she got the facts from.
I am still waiting for her to tell me "Just where are the concentration camps in Gaza?.
Where did she read that the Israelis said "that the Palestinians had enough wheelchairs"?.
As for Marilyn being right, I don't think so.
What about this "those pesky Jews set out to cause trouble from the start didn't they". for Marilyn's information it was her Muslim friends who tried to break through the blockade. The captain of the boat refused to stop as requested by the Israeli Navy.
No Justin the words Logic Marilyn is a contradiction in terms.
Perhaps Marilyn could take over from Helen Thomas.