Webdiary - Founded and Inspired by Margo Kingston |
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That's what you do in politics: SA Labor's Family First Fraud
If the publicity of an election hoax was a major factor in PM John Howard losing his seat, then pre-publicity of Labor's how-to-vote hoax in South Australia would definitely have caused a total disaster for SA's ALP. Had it become public before voting on Saturday, a kneejerk reaction of distaste might have changed a possible tight win into an anti-Rannslide.
I was handing out cards for a party called Dignity 4 Disabled on Saturday, at a booth in SA Attorney-General Mick Atkinson's seat of Croydon. While we were waiting to pounce on fresh victims, the discussion among the various volunteers turned to the preferences being given by one to another.
The Family First Volunteer scoffed : "Our preferences don't go to Labor" and was dismayed when we showed her that FF were giving their preferences to the A-G. Even so, I'm guessing in hindsight that this isn't what she was talking about. Stories of what Labor was doing at the booths would no doubt have been circulating by mid-morning.
In most electorates Family First had placed Labor sixth in the preferential chain. As revealed in the Saturday night election coverage, the ALP sent out people with fake how-to-vote cards that appeared fair dinkum unless you read the fine print of the endorsement. The cards even carried the FF-registered logo, and those handing them out were reportedly (from an FF viewpoint) wolves dressed in sheep's clothing.
Unlike the true FF cards that put Labor well behind the Libs, the dodgy ALP ones gave Labor first preference. In this manner voters were conned into believing that their party wanted its unsuccessful votes to go to Labor when this was actually (apart from the deal with the A-G) far from the truth.
When shown the fake card during ABC-TV's televised election coverage. Deputy Premier and State Treasurer Kevin Foley countered by saying ""Clearly anything from the Labor Party would have been done within the Electoral Act" He told ABC's Kerry O'Brien that the tactic was "what you do in politics"
The good ship "S.A. Cabinet" has just lost two of its crew, and the Cap'n, First Mate and Bosun have been pounded by waves of disapproval. "Two fingered salutes" of double-diigit trends against them have already inspired Rann to send both Cabinet and backbenchers out on a renewal of the "Labor Listens" campaign. They're bound to get an earbashing filled with dismay at this deception.
Attempting to reinstill faith after a demonstrated public grumpiness about spin tactics, SA Labor's ailing cred-factor is reduced to tatters by such behaviour. Still hurting from public disbelief in his denials of sexual encounters with then-Parliamentary-Barmaid Michelle Chantelois, Premier Rann has not yet made any comment about this new display of ALP lying. One could guess that by now the Cabinet Media Pool might be dosing themselves with tranquilisers. No doubt, either, that Federal ALP spindoctors have been losing some sleep as well. With one SA Cabinet member already having many across the country shaking their heads in disbelief, the Feds now have an entire (almost) newly-elected Labor Government creating a publicity nightmare.
Attorney-General Atkinson is perceived by many as a national laughing-stock for his misguided mis-censorship of video games as well as his failed attempt to implement legislation regulating pre-election political commenting. His own FF preferences not part of the hoax, Mick resigned his Cabinet post (but not his seat) first thing after Church on Sunday morning. He claimed he was doing it to facilitate party renewal, and that it would be unfair of him to cause a by-election.
Believed to have been gagged by party tacticians, Atkinson was reduced to making unreported comments at Adelaide's Irish Club after the St Patrick's Parade. Reading from notes (placed near my feet on the stage) he told revellers nothing more controversial than that the route had been a nice length, and praised the local Catholic signifigance of the church where it began. Beyond such remarks, Mick hasn't been heard of for the weeks of the official campaign.
Labor's new Laura Norder stuff (regarded by many in Adelaide's legal community as both draconian and ludicrous) was announced by Premier Rann while Mick sat in the spindoctors' "Cone of Silence." This was lucky for him, as his continual attempts at provocation of litigious remarks (including challenging an independent MLC to repeat claims of local govternment meddling outside of Parliamentary Privilege) on some Facebook pages were beginning to resemble attempted political facilitation of at least one major property deal..
Whether or not Tony Abbott (in his capacity of NSW right "darling") was involved in the Lindsay "sh*tsheet" fiasco, he's going to love this display of electoral fraudulence by his opponents. Watch for him linking the sanctioning of such tactics to Rudd's Federal Cabinet. The approval (or at least lack of disapproval) by the vast majority of SA ALP candidates creates an ethical tarnishing and diminishing of credibility for the entire party that will ripple outwards a long way past the South Australian borders
There's a simple solution to the problem. Let A-G Atkinson resign his seat and llet it be contested on the issue of ALP credibility. Wouldn't you love to see how FF allocate their preferences in his Croydon seat the second time around? If the result of such a poll was percieved as either sanction or castigation of Labor's behaviour, everyone might know the lie of the land without too much blood being spilled in a political mutiny.
When first elected in 2002, Premier Rann introduced a Ministerial Code of Conduct that prominently featured party-representational behaviour at all times. Any of his Cabinet, himself included, that approved the Family First Fraud will need to be far away from politics by the next election. If not, the keelhauling will leave SA Labor becalmed for many, many years.
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Yours Truly named by ex-AG in Parl for "accusing"
I'll spare you most of the waffle, and although Atkinson's slur on me is unclear, the comments he's made of the Save St Clair group would be legally quite interesting if repeated outside of Parliamentary Privilege:
*LOCAL GOVERNMENT MEETINGS*
Hous
F\e of Assembly - Thursday, 28 October 2010, Page 1853
The Hon. M.J. ATKINSON (Croydon) (15:33): My topic is how local government
copes with the disruption of the proceedings of council meetings so severe
that the council cannot function. Councillor Jim Jacobsen has done this to
Burnside council repeatedly, and Charles Sturt mayoral candidate Kirsten
Alexander has employed the tactic from the gallery at Charles Sturt.
Indeed, at Charles Sturt, we had the mayor, a 74-year-old widower, shouted
at by Miss Alexander's host that he was a four-letter word beginning with C.
Councillor Anna Rau was spat upon by a person from the same host. Miss
Alexander tells us that her protesters were just 'mums and dads'. I do not
accept that a demonstrated ability to reproduce gives one licence to behave
in this fashion.
Up to half of Miss Alexander's followers at these demonstrations were not
from the Charles Sturt council area, let alone Woodville. Those who have met
or had dealings with Kirsten Alexander are most unlikely to vote for her in
the current ballot but, alas, not enough Charles Sturt ratepayers will meet
Kirsten Alexander before they vote, and I predict she is a shorter price to
win the mayoralty than So You Think was to win the W.S. Cox Plate last
Saturday.
Like the People's Liberation Front of Judea in Monty Python's The Life of
Brian, the St Clair residents' action group has split, and its Facebook site
is now vilifying former member and candidate for the state district of
Cheltenham, Henrietta Child of Woodville North, who is also running for
mayor.
The Hon. A. Koutsantonis: Splitter.
The Hon. M.J. ATKINSON: Yes, indeed, splitter, as the part owner of the
Governor Hindmarsh Hotel, Richard Tonkin, accuses her on the Facebook site. We
can look forward to four years of the Charles Sturt Council's being a soap
opera as mayor Kirsten fights the staff and ward councillors in the course
of trying to make the Corporation of the City of Charles Sturt's principal
function that of a battering ram against the state Labor government. I
predict that should Mr Jacobsen not be elected mayor and Miss Alexander not
be elected mayor neither will accept the result.
Onya, Mick!
Sad to see Mick has fallen
Sad to see Mick has fallen to this level.
Why wont he support an ICAC in SA?
So, it's all over
So, it's all over officially, this SA election.
Redmond has conceded and the some total of seats gained from an eight per cent swing was a whole two seats, won off of other indies or conservatives rather than Labor. Redmond has been further chastened by the election of Martin Hamilton Smith as deputy leader, against her personal candidate, the recycled right wing religious hack Iain Evans.
Tassie, with its Burke and Hare voting system, is still sorting a result for its election.
The football season has started, obviating the need for further diversions or entertainments involving the control of billions of dollars, like state elections.
not over till cuddles warbles
Yes, that's turned out to be quite a peculiar result, with the little Bright Fox surviving against all odds, but indi Kris Hanna, who I'd picked as safe, finally out to the Labor candidate in a three cornered contest,decided on postals. Never over till the cuddly girl sings.
Richard Tonkin has raised the possibility of irregularities and funny tricks concerning the electorates involved with St Clair and Cheltenham.
Therefore, be interested in what he has to say about Hanna, who is also crying foul.
Meanwhile, the Libs are having a shoot out for their deputy leadership, perhaps provoked by irritation with current deputy Vicki Chapman's destabilising faux re leadership, a few days before election day.
Tetchy, tetchy. ..Watching
Tetchy, tetchy. ..
Watching Stateline, frustrated former ALP dep Leader and city councillor Ralph Clark expressed the similar frustrations of so many, discussing the sad defeat of Jane Lomax Smith in particular; also Vini Cicarello out in leafy green Norwood.
Boiled down to Labor's populist approach to enviro/heritage approach creating an atmosphere where, in better educated electorates, the voters were "waiting with baseball bats", for Labor figureheads.
Following the election comments, came a story about how the Adelaide Parklands and streetscapes, significant trees,etc, have been run down by draconian watering restrictions, etc.
Deliberate "situational bad" creation?
The Foley-Makris-Rann War on the Parklands and enviro guidelines has not been a mistake, in the way of Adelaide enviro being run down. These were to do with cementing the long term alliance of Labor and the developers with the loss of long term inner city supporters a cost factored into the equation. With out the encumberance of thinking people pointing out reality at branch meetings gone, the ALP was able to embrace the tradies in the marginals who have been spooked by fear and loathing against environmental reform, with a sustained and vulgar anti intellectualist, populist campaign.
It can be said that the politics of SA, with its two party system subject to manipulation from the fourth estate, forces political parties to fit in with an globalist, neolib vision that sees society, in this case SA, in the same way as a botfly grub sees a sheep: something to be exploited, regardless of the pain inflicted on the victim, rather than a location for the growth and fulfillment of humans.
I think Richard is right to raise the seriousness of the situation; we live in a society where the mechanisms of accountability have been eroded,"americanised" and tricks like the one Richard speculates upon are now a feature across oz politics. The big example of course remains Gunns and the Tas and Vic governments moving to silence the Greens, back over the last few years thru a calculated (mis)use of the expensive and cumbersome legal system.
Both Labor and Liberal alike have capitulated to the sheer force of the corporatist formations who use development ideology as means for ransacking a well constructed society, put together by the work of previous and better generations than ours, rather than actually "creating" wealth.
Well, net loss 2
Who would have thought that Hanna would be booted out and Fox would be re-elected.
So the Liberals only got a net gain of 2 from the ALP. Pathetic when you think about it.
Requiems for heavy weights Minchin ( and Atkinson )
Culminating a hectic ten days in politics and a month since his officer son was apparently badly injured in an outdoors accident, the eminence gris of South Australian and Australian politics, Sen. Nick Minchin, has announced that he will end his parliamentary political career at the next Senate turnover. He has furthermore fairly immediately stepped down from his top jobs in the shadow ministry and Senate.
Quite surprising, if this was a man confident of the party he is a leader of winniing an election in twelve months or less.
Looking at the latest photo, it looks more a case of burn-out for a middle aged political longhauler at the bottom of one trough too many. This week might have produced the straws that broke the camel's back, with Abbot's apparent stumble against Rudd and the omnipotent worm on what was claimed to be Abbot's home territory as a performer. Perhaps Abbot had an inkling of Minchin's thinking and experienced the sense of a body blow, the other main leader of his conservative Liberal wing choosing to opt out at this of all times, expressed in his painful effort against Rudd.
Apart from that, you'd think the last barren few years for the coalition partners hardly good for even the most indomitable of morales.
Minchin's taste in the mouth would have been finally fouled by a last losing misfortune, the defeat of his SA factional ally Isobel Redmond's SA Libs after a nail-biting election, that looks like it might have knocked the stuffings out of SA Labor, too.
A curious parallel, this departure on top of a similar character, SA 's just resigning (from cabinet, at least) AG and Labor right identity, Mick Atkinson.
Both are surely perceived as socially conservative, often behind the scenes operative managerialists (in particular Minchin, Rann fit the term managerialist more closely than Atkinson). Both are now ex cabinet ministers at their respective tier levels of government, so perhaps there's a bit of emotional baggage that comes from making less savoury decisions that compromise ethics and morals, or being rolled in cabinet on personal proposals. Conscience is a big factor in understanding these two slightly intense, puritan (WASP?) figures.
They are not Richo's or some other cheerful political tradesguys, the like. Guys like Atkinson and Minchin will carry deep scars from the times going against the grain in different ways. Will they wear their respective wounds like a hair shirt, the wounds are obscured by a stoic veneer, but the pain would be the worse for it.
So they are burnt out.
Minchin has perhaps come to understand that the fearful defeat for Howard's government in 2007 led to a sense of denial and grief, and a desperate attempt to facing up that the boat had gone down.
But three years on for Minchin, this has become truly a morning after the night before - all illusions are gone and the scene resembles a train wreck, not helped by the Liberal party's sometimes emotion-driven decison making since 2007.
Similarly, Atkinson has reacted angrily to the first open repudiation of the Rann years by the public in its now fair stay in government, he's in Canute-like denial, altho he is possibly not quite as terminal as the slightly older Minchin particularly as to ground level politics. The weary SA Labor factions now spit out the suppressed tension of a needle-ish election campaign and that's all stress, too. Like Howard's and Keating's last governments, SA Labor will run the risk of running a stale and lacklustre last four years in governemt, if they don't wake up.
Redmond's Liberals can keep improving and not fall back into the despondent factional feuding that is the hallmark of a political party in the wilderness.
The two figures will probably retreat to a godfathering role and they'll probably stay active in factional politics, because they are addicted to this sort of politics, altho Minchin looks possibly like he's going to make a clean break and get a life.
A little question for Henrietta
the rustic contemplations of rural folk
Am inclined to agree with Marilyn, in the absense of stronger evidence. Election days always produce antics and tricks and many of these go on to become legend and folklore.
Frankly, I was amused at the story, altho I shouldnt have been- typical of the (antiquated?) aussie larakin mentality. Nowhere else is this to be found as much as in the rough edged populist harshness that hosts the Labor Right.
Btw, on Weatherill and the 'tiser, I think Mick saw it coming and pulled back to suck Weatherill in, so Kelton could bomb him. Worked a treat, if so.
Far more worrisome are the sort of tricks the valueless right comes up with to protect its real game, when back in government.
A beaut example is just up at another site- Quiggins- where the Prof comments on a Courier Mail report that (cowardly?) Bligh has refused a debate with the opposition on their broken election promise concerning mass privatisation, because its not an election year.
Now that's the dark side of the Labor Right; commercial in confidence, foi, etc, etc.
Its true that the FF stunt could be taken as evidence of a darker mentality. No probs there.
But FF are (just) another lot that need a huge kick up the butt as to ethics, so I find little sympathy for them, any more than that assembled multitude that comprises the rest of the political operators involved in our antiquarian politics.
Oh puhleese
Talk about nothing much about nothing much Richard. Now I am in Angaston and searched for anyone who was not from either major party and luckily found a Greens to vote for even though Ivan Venning was re-elected for the 4,000th time.
If people take how to vote cards and follow the silly things it serves them right if they are conned. They should think for themselves.
But before Rabbit gets too carried away let us not forget the Crosby Textor/EB shenanigans in Tasmania and New Zealand endorsed by Howard and co. after very large donations.
At least the ALP had their names and address on the how to vote cards, the Libs and EB never did.
How to vote cards are not legal tender mate, just suggestions.
I am so glad that Mad Mick has resigned though.
How to be a political bully?
One of the groups spending election night in our pub, Save St Clair, might well have polled much higher were it not for volunteers in their colors handing out card for the local indie, giving preferences to Labor over the real campaigners. Story on 891 this morning was that when confronted aforementioned vollie said "oops I've brought the wrong cards" and promptly vanished.
That indie (this being Cheltenham, the area of the second Transit Oriented development in the string of them that commences behind the pub) polled 9% of the vote. Weatherill polled 50%
This inde, Henrietta Child, subsequently interviewed by ABC, said she had no agreements with other candidates. True enough.. however, here's what she told me via FB message last week:
I now wonder if her role was to divert votes from Save St Clair to Labor, or at the very least away from the cause.
There's another factor to this part of the tale. The electorate of Cheltenham is adjacent to the former A-G's seat of Croydon, greatly affected by the new housing development. While in office the A-G was bullying those moderating and participating on the Save St Clair Facebook page (including him making a false accusation of someone calling him a pedo). Mick was fighting those on the page from just after Christmas. NB I have screengrabs of the convos if anyone needs them. During this period of time, though he only revealed the info to mainstream media in hindsight, Mick's new political-commentary internet laws came into effect. I can only surmise that he was hoping to create evidence to justify his new legislation.
If the group of people fighting for their park were not only bullied by the A-G but also had a fake candidate set up to take away the voice of their votes, I will be more disgusted with Labor than ever.
On a brighter note. it was wonderful to spend time, as everyone was heading home, with Dignity for Disabled candidate Kelly Vincent as she watched a compscreen showing her likelihood of election to the Upper House. Thanks to preferences from indies and microparties it still looks like she'll get in. It was an emotional night for Kelly, her running-mate having died of a stroke only a couple of weeks ago. She's 21, and now has the responsibilty of representing the disabled in SA Parliament. The renovators will be busy before she arrives, creating a long overdue wheelchair-friendliness.
Long bow
Richard Tonkin: "I wonder if her ( Henrietta Childe, indie Save St Clair candidate's ) role was to divert votes from Save St Clair to Labor, or at least away from the cause".
That's drawing a long bow.
I'd think she set up her how to vote card to demonstrate that Save St Clair is not allied with any of the worthless major parties, who all have appalling heritage/environmental credentials.The problem with the voting system is, that you must eventually preference back to a major party, regardless of who you vote for as first preference.
Henriettta Child's fellow Save St Clair campaigner in our seat of Croydon, Max Galanti, did suggest he would exhaust back to the Libs.
Am sure I wrote something on this last week, that for me, that meant I could either vote Green and exhaust back to Labor, or for Max, exhausting back to the libs.
Now, where was my choice?
Cross bow
[Media release extract]..
Maybe not so long a bow, Paul. There's more to the Henrietta story yet.. let's just say her "fellow St Clair supporters" could be justified in not being enamoured with her recent behaviour. Rumours of undermining were floating around last week.
She's saying this week that she's thinking of running for Charles Sturt Council, but thinks the process might be "tame" after the intensity of the state election campaign.
There should be a story in tomorrow's Messenger about the land package that Rann offered the crew last week, which was declined. Stay tuned!
Marilyn, isn't a party's printed paper representative of its ethics, legal tender or no?
Thanks for taking an interest
It is almost ironical that there should be this much interest in me and my campaign in this blog - if only the mainstream press were so easy to get coverage with, the campaign would have been so much easier.
I am sorry to disappoint the conspiracy theorists, but I am exactly what I seem - a business owner and local resident who decided to step up and run as an Independent in a safe Labor seat, because I am tired of being ignored by the political process which only takes any interest in the marginals.
I am not a member of any party, I am interested in local and community issues.
Yes I do have some involvement with the St Clair group. I agree with their cause and they agreed to support me. But they are a residents association, not a political party. I ran as a Independent.
I was also campaigning about the Cheltenham Park Racecourse, open space in general, and the continued decline in services at the Queen Elizabeth Hospital.
I was clear from the very start, as I told you in my reply to you on Facebook Richard, that I was open about preferencing, I have no political alignments and no deals were done.
The issue of preferencing is interesting in a seat where the incumbent routinely gets more than 50% of the primary vote. Obviously my preferences were never going to inlfuence the outcome in Cheltenham.
My how-to-vote card could have had some inpact on who chose to vote for me.
There are two issues here. Should a candidate or party have control of how they present themselves to the electorate, in this case through the medium of the how-to-vote card, or should others for whatever reason, be able to distribute alternative material without their consent. It would appear that the law allows this, although I think the proposition may be about to be tested in the courts.
The second issue which you raise is the suggestion that I deliberately might have preferenced Labor in order to reduce the number of votes I received so as to somehow damage the St Clair cause. This theory questions my reasons for running in the first place. I find this idea fascinating. I wish I could reach that level of devious thinking. But it isn't logical either.
Presenting myself to the electorate as someone who is non aligned does not advantage or preference Labor.
However, presenting me as someone who preferences the Liberal Party, in a very safe Labor seat, was not useful to my cause, and I can only conjecture that it reduced my vote.
Yes there was dissent about this, because some of the St Clair campaigners were keen for me to take this course. I fully understand their frustration with the lack of support they have received from the Labor Party, and in particular the local member Jay Weatherill, in their struggle with the Charles Sturt Council.
But I wished to maintain my Independent position, and I think that should have been my right.
I should point out some inaccuracies in your story, which you would have heard me correct on ABC 891 too.
There were no campaign T shirts. for booth workers - I had one but that was all - local Independent campaigns don't run on those sort of resourses.
Alternative how-to-vote cards were produced and distributed to booth workers by some members of the St Clair group who misguidedly thought it would help their cause. These alternative ones preferenced the Liberal Party.
My official how-to-vote card was a yellow card with two alternatve voting options on it.
Finally Richard I would point out, that I am disappointed with the standards being observed on your blog. This website quotes it's inspiration as Margo Kingston. I feel certain that Margo would have identified herslf as a journalist when approaching a candidate for information - your approach to me on facebook did not do so. Margo's inspiration would seem to imply high journalistic standards, and yet you have posted this material without contacting me. I would have been very happy to have been interviewed by you, had you asked me, but you did not contact me. I wonder what Margo would say?
A lull in the storm
Apologies for delays in responding, Henrietta, my comp died so I've been offline for nearly two days.. and I must say 'twas an enjoyable break.
I will address some of your issues over the weekend, but one thing needs immediate clarification. When I wrote to you I was merely conducting a personal survey on candidate's preferences. In the discussions on my Facebook page last week (reprinted on AdelaideNow) you'll see that I've discussed other people's preferences, which I also learned by asking the questions. It seemed to me that some folks were unaware of the ramifications of preferential voting, and I wanted to help with this.
As the nature of this story did not exist at the time I could hardly be accused of researching something that didn't yet exist. Had I been preparing a story I certainly would have told you that.
I know what Margo would say; she's said it here often enough. Everybody has the right to ask questions, and also the right (unless they're given off the record, which yours certainly weren't) to discuss the nature of the answers. This site was set up to promote the notion of Citizen Journalism, and encourage everybody's capability of sharing what they see and hear around them. Such sharing is far from immoral, and I'm actually quite amused (though somewhat perturbed) that you find it so.
On the question of morality- It took me till this week to get to your webpublished media releases and learn that you run a company focussing on project facilitation. I don't see a lot about that on your fan page.
Paul, the ramifications of the Minchin resignation could do with a bit more inspection.. I worry that it's let the Budgie Smuggler off his leash. It'll be interesting to see what unfurls over the weekend. Meanwhile I'd love to hear the opinions of others on Nick's departure!
There's a rally to protest vote-stealing at Adelaide's Parliament House on Sunday at 1 pm. I'll attend and report back.
Who expects them to have ethics?
Not this old broad. But the story of the St Clair thing is interesting.
I am glad the Save the RAH got very few votes, the place needs bulldozing.
Watching Jay Weatherill
Yes, watching Jay Weatherill on teev last night talking about Labor now "seeking out its electorate" and adopting a "new" approach, I wondered if indeed the election results had got thru to Rann Labor. After all, here is a fellow who unrepentently announced his opposition to a corruption/crime commission only days ago.
But the election certainly has produced a change (of attitude) on the Road to
Damacus, it seems?
No, I know- its a pipedream- no hope that Weatherill will prove any more forthcoming than any of the other politicians, if I read his body language correctly.
So the battle for open government and accountability must go on. Those seeking the retention of public infrastructure and transperancy in dealings concerning these must continue their efforts- Weatherill and co will only destroy civil society if we let them.
Supplementary question to Henrietta
Weathering the storm
Update on Weatherill.
Kelton and the 'tiser gave Weatherill an utter flaying this morning, for having the temerity to oppose the developer's favourite, Foley.
I know Weatherill deserves this, for blatant hypocrisy, but I think the Weatherill beat up, like Chanteloisgate gate, is more about the Advertiser pushing its own hidden agenda than evidenc e of concern by/for it for the SA community.
Rather, oil on the waters, I'd suggest.
Chanteloisgate did inadvertantly encourage a bit of interest from apathetic Crowies concerning politics.
But I don't think that was the reason the Advertiser "ran" Chantelois.
The Advertiser would be quite happy to sink SA into the same level of ungovernability as NSW, merely to advance its own prospects regardless of harm done to the SA community, until it found someone to do its bidding down to the microscopic fine print, on the double, also!
Its about time people started thinking a bit more closely about what tabloid media and press say and why, without just accepting without futher thought as what the Milne clones write.