Webdiary - Independent, Ethical, Accountable and Transparent
header_02 home about login header_06
sidebar-top content-top

Marilyn Shepherd reviews Paul McGeough's Kill Khalid

Thank you, Marilyn Shepherd, for this review.

Kill Khalid by Paul McGeough

McGeough is that rare journalist who takes no sides or prisoners of his own but his compassion and care for those who are traumatised and battered always shine through. I scarcely feel qualified to give any sort of review of his book Kill Khalid but as the book itself is a tour de force that should be read by any and all people who can find it in themselves to have an open mind and open heart I will give it a shot.

I grew up with the romantic notion that Israel was really the story of Exodus as written by Leon Uris; I grew up thinking the Jews were so hard done by they were right to take the empty land and make it their own. I had no idea how deluded that was until the massacre in Sabra and Shatila in 1982 laid bare to the world the brutality and vicious hatred of those Jews towards the Arabs they saw as the enemy. My journey into the region led me to the case of Akram Al Masri and other Palestinians in 2002 which led me to a greater understanding of the area and has had me reading the works of Norman Finkelstein – Beyond Chutzpah and The Holocaust Industry – which show that the Israelis are not the victims: they are the criminals in what Finkelstein calls the satanic state.

Ilan Pappe’s Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine is a brave, landmark book which McGeough clearly used to explain his book. Jimmy Carter laid bare the lies and infamy of Barak’s Camp David walkout and non-deal and Arafat’s corruption and sellout of the people he was supposed to protect. Others like Gershom Gorenberg and Akiva Eldar have written about the illegal settlements and the impact on the Palestinians, and a few Palestinians who were displaced in 1848 have written of their experiences.

Journalists like Amira Hass, Gideon Levy and Uri Avnery have written for many years about the cruel occupation and the plight of the Palestinians. We need to hear their voices.

It is those experiences that led to the birth of Khalid Mishal and his so-called terrorism. I say that because when I compare his life to the privilege of someone like Netanyahu and Peres I cannot call the man a terrorist.

Two protagonists: Israel which was built on lies, spin, terrorism and ethnic cleansing over many years and Palestine which was a nation of farmers, olive growers and ordinary human beings for 2000 years or so who were the victims of the ethnic cleansing. I state now that my grandfather was in Palestine in WW11 with the 2AIF and I grew up hearing of their hospitality, kindness and caring for their fellow man and frankly the cruel, racist brutality of the Zionist my grandfather encountered. He was injured by one such person and was defended by a Palestinian farmer, something these two men had in common.

Rather than repeat the reviews that have been written so far I would like to explain how I feel about Mishal and how I understand what made him.

At the age of 11 he and his family were forced out of the West Bank in the Six Day War and the illegal occupation of the land by Israelis. Like the refugees in 1948, these new refugees thought they could go home: the UN had said Israel could not keep the land. They were as wrong as the first refugees because the Israelis simply started building illegal outposts by calling them “military”, and once the world decided it was OK they turned them into what we see today. Rows and rows of red roofed Jews only homes connected by Jews only roads, all deliberately built to be fortress outposts spying on the Palestinians and making their lives a living hell in smaller and smaller spaces.

Mishal is just a couple of years younger than me: a teacher, a lad made homeless and left drifting without any real home since 1967. He graduated highly as a physics teacher in his land of exile, Kuwait, and became interested in getting his home back even if that meant violence. So he connected with the Muslim brotherhood and dreamed of his homeland until 1991 when Arafat backed the wrong horse in the attack on Kuwait and Kuwait expelled over 400,000 Palestinians.

In Jordan he was almost murdered by Netanyahu, a man who got his education in America and had every privilege in Israel on his return. A man who came to be the PM and decided to murder a man whom he had never met, who was not really very important in the scheme of Hamas and at the same time triggered an international crisis from Canada, to Jordan, the US, Israel and Palestine that lost him his job in the end.

I know that I am supposed to be appalled at the actions of Hamas but I cannot find myself in that place – I find myself in sympathy instead because I see that Israel is the real terrorist entity here and has been since the 19th century when Hertzl and a few others decided they wanted Palestine. I find that telling the Palestinians not to fight back against the oppression, imprisonment and ritual torture and torment is the same as telling the victim of a gang rape to smile nicely at her rapists and then thank them.

The first terrorist attack by Hamas was not launched until after Baruch Goldstein entered a mosque, while people prayed, and committed a massacre. That was answered with a suicide bomber.

I won’t go any further; I do though recommend this timely book and suggest that everyone read it from the view of an open mind instead of the closed Zionist spin.

Mishal has never raised a weapon himself: he lives in hiding, he has had Netanyahu try to kill him, has had Zionists drive him from his home, he has been exiled three times and has no real home.

Who am I, who are you, to judge this man as a terrorist when he is far more sinned against than sinner? To my mind Bibi is the terrorist and yet he has just been re-elected by the Israeli people who know he is a terrorist and just don’t care. Livni is a war criminal, Barak is a war criminal, Peres is a war criminal. The Israeli cabinet are all war criminals just elected by a criminal non-state while 6 million Palestinians have still lost their homes, their land, their lives and their hope.

My question is, “Who is the real terrorist here?”

This is a book I simply could not put down.

[ category: ]

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

Paul McGeough documents Hamas greed and corruption

Marilyn Shepherd: "Hamas are not corrupt. They do not divert from charities, they raised the money to spend on schools and hospitals."

This from the Paul McGeough book you are reviewing here, taken more or less at random, concerning the arrest of Mohammad Salah amongst other Hamas 'fund raisers in the USA and Middle East':

"Just four days after Salah's arrest in Israel there was an unseemly rush to get at the funds in his accounts.

A person described by the FBI as an unidentified individual attempted to cash a $299,950 check, which had supposedly been signed by the Salah. It was payable to Nasser Al-Khatib, who worked in the United States as a private secretary to Mousa Abu Marzook. The bank refused to clear the check and later the FBI concluded that the handwriting was not Salah's.

Three days after that attempted check fraud, it was Salah's wife, Azita, who lunged.

She withdrew an amount just shy of $750,000, depositing it in a new account at the Standard Bank and Trust. Two months later, she drew $97,067.93 to pay down the mortgage on their home, which was in Salah's name, even though she well knew the funds had been deposited for distribution to foreign charities.."

 - Paul McGeough, Kill Khalid (op cit), p 100.

There's pages of stuff like that in McGeough's book.

Mousa Abu Marzook, for example, was on a $30,000-$40,000 per annum salary regularly passed millions of dollars through his personal accounts in 1989 and 1990 (McGeough  op cit - page 88) and at the time of his arrest had $490,000 in one personal saving account alone. (McGeough  op cit - page 89)

In fact, while Hamas supporters are today ready to acknowledge Yasser Arafat's corruption, we all recall how they defended him against such accusations when he was in power.

Today, they defend Hamas just as they used to defend Arafat.

That was not corruption

Eliot, you have the strangest idea of actual corruption. How about the testimony of nice Israeli soldiers who admit they murdered civilians in cold blood, didn't care about their lives at all and bulldozed their homes for fun?

Doing business with Hamas

Yeah, sure. Not corrupt at all. It was "charity" work.

Don't know what on earth Paul McGeough's going on about.

It's just like how George Galloway used "charity' to funnel millions of dollars from Saddam in oil under the Oil for Food programme. Including into his wife's and his own personal bank accounts.

All above board.

In the Australian Wheat Board sense of the phrase.

Galloway did no such thing

The question is "have you read the book". You are cherry picking bits that make the Palestinians look bad and ignoring the real story: the attempted murder of a man they did not know.

Have you even read the book, Marilyn?

Perhaps you picked up the wrong book, Marilyn? Have you been reading Alice on Wonderland by mistake?

If I eat at my friend's table, I respect his hospitality

Well, well, well, get a load of this:

LABOR leader and alternative prime minister Kevin Rudd pledged his party’s continued support for Israel, describing himself as an “unapologetic and lifelong friend” at a Jewish fundraiser this week.

In his first address to a Jewish audience since becoming Opposition leader, Rudd, who was leading polls for preferred prime minister this week, was guest of honour at Tuesday’s Yeshiva Centre fundraising dinner.

Donning a kippa, Rudd told about 1200 guests at the Sydney Convention Centre at Darling Harbour that Israel was “near and dear to my heart”.

Citing Ben Chifley’s government of 1945 to illustrate Labor’s long-time support and friendship for Israel, he said the two have stood “shoulder to shoulder” since the establishment of the Jewish State.

Mr William no doubt has reams of posts condemning such pandering?

Lest one think he's merely using an emotive issue, rather opportunistically, and rather shabbily, with which to attack people.

Is it really about Israel? In Western circles is it ever really just about Israel?

No doubt also the Australian Defense budget will be rising. That's of course when Mr William's preferred government kicks out all those evil American military types. Should be any day now..........

Israel didn't exist in 1945

What sort of nutcase is Rudd? Israel did not exist in 1945, and Australia still had the AIF in Palestine at the time.

Is he a complete and utter moron or what?

Chifley had nothing at all to do with any place called Israel, he can't have.

Did you send your birthday card?

Ernest William: "And of course my old question remains unanswered - why should any of the ICC signatories even consider new Israel is a state of any kind?"

Why don't you start by asking the government you cheerlead for? And whilst you're at it, you could ask why they feel the need to be so protective of American military bases (Israel comes under the same protective umbrella).

According to a poster here, they've (that'd be your favorite government) just upped the penalty for protesting against American military bases in Australia. That of course would be your selected government, no?

I'm also led to believe your preferred government celebrated Israel's 60th birthday (Google told me).

Now I know you like to accuse all and sundry of being "Zionist stooges", a part of a lobby, and such. I've got to write, it looks to me, I may have found one of the world's biggest supporters. And I'm sure there's much, much more.

So let's forget about the rest of the world's involvement (namely America) and talk about Australia's, huh? Namely the current Austalian Government. A little close to home, perhaps? I bet it beats talking about the current economic climate though.

People in glass houses and all that.

Welcome to Planet Earth

Ernest William: "So Israel can do as it likes? And so can the US? And so can all of the non-signatories and those who have not ratified? Radical and rogue countries without any consideration for anyone else".

In strictly legal terms, they'd be constrained, only by their own laws.

It's a good thing the USA possesses fucking big nuclear bombs, no? For the USA at least.

Then reason and logic would dictate that anyone can attack Israel and the US without fear of the International Criminal Court? No more active sympathy with 9/11’s or WW II?

Well it would, though, it doesn't. I think the favorite Nazi saying was the Geneva Convention doesn't exist here. For them, unfortunately, they didn't possess fucking big nuclear bombs.

Does this also mean that the actions of the Nazis was not an infringement of international law if as Morrella states - there isn't any such law!

There's victors law. Reading history I don't think the Nazis won.

And of course my old question remains unanswered - why should any of the ICC signatories even consider new Israel is a state of any kind?

Why don't you email and ask them? I can't answer the question.

There's a famous saying: "When in Rome..." It stands the test of time.

You keep asking for answers about how the world works. Well, you've just been supplied. It seems rather pointless attacking the messenger. And anyhow for a person with "your apparent life experience", didn't this cross your mind, oh I don't know, about forty years ago?

Hamas - they were your choice, not mine

Marilyn Shepherd: "Eliot, Hamas started because Fatah is corrupt to the core and the Palestinians got sick to death of them."

Nobody disputes that. But that doesn't alter the fact that Hamas themselves are racist, incompetent cowards fit only for murdering helpless prostitutes, attacking harmless eldery civilians, shooting their Palestinian critics and cowering being human shields.

And as Paul McGeough's book amply demonstrates, they are corrrupt to the core themselves, thieving from charities and elsewhere and diverting ill gotten gains to their own illegal and immoral purposes.

It is a pitiful reflection on the so called "peace" movement and western Leftist "intellectuals" that they now find themselves having repeatedly to defend such vermin.

Paul McGeough should be congratulated for having brought all this to the public's attention, and I heartly recommend the book to anyone who wants to learn about the disgusting Hamas fascists.

Come to think of it...

Come to think of it, Hamas's administration of Gaza is probably a pretty good indication of how they'd run some imagined, future Islamic Republic of Greater Palestine.

Only, they'd have about four million Jews in their clutches.

And while we can only imagine how they'd deal with that situation, I guess we can confidently get an idea by extrapolating from the way in which they treat Palestinians who get in their way.


Hamas are not corrupt. They do not divert from charities, they raised the money to spend on schools and hospitals.

LEIGH SALES: Do you think that their supporters would accept a negotiated peace, given that perhaps their thought might be, "Well, if we lockdown into this conflict for as long as possible, potentially years, decades, we've got a growing population; eventually we'll outnumber the Israeli's and we'll win."

PAUL MCGEOUGH: The Palestinians don't support Hamas because Hamas is a fundamentalist religious organisation. They support is because it's an organisation that works to look after people in adversity, and because it is a nationalist organisation. The idea that they're sort of clinging to some sort of religious belief doesn't hold up when you mix with Palestinians and talk to them and ask them: why do they support it? They support it because of what it does, and because of what it's not, which is to say because it's not Fatah.

Eliot, you better make sure you can back up your position with facts.

And you can't eat seafood on Friday, so says the law

Ernest William: "It is an interesting fact that only the powers that be support the Zionist's illegal invasion - as far as I can tell, the world experts in the fields of law and justice all condemn that action but then - they have no political or financial gain to be otherwise."

There isn't of course any universally accepted "international law". Outside of maritime that is. There are really only a number of signatures on agreements that can be, and often are, broken at any time. International law is political - it's always been political - it'll always be political.

Any yahoo can quote their particular version of "international law", and on the net, they often do. Rarely if ever is it result-based.

The morals of any situation are of course an entirely different thing. Morals and law, my man, aint the same thing.

Jawing this law and that law is seemingly meaningless without results. I really don't know why people even bother.

No international law?

Paul Morrella: "There isn't of course any universally accepted "international law".

He should try Googling "States Parties to the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court".

One interesting section is:

Israel voted against the adoption of the Rome Statute but later signed it for a short period.

In 2002, the United States and Israel, "unsigned" the Rome Statute, indicating that they no longer intend to become states parties and, as such, they have no legal obligations arising from their signature of the statute.

In 2002 Israel submitted a letter to the United Nations declaring that it did not intend to ratify the treaty, using identical wording as the United States.

Israel states that it has "deep sympathy" with the goals of the court. However, it has concerns that political pressure on the court would lead it to reinterpret international law or to "invent new crimes". It cites the inclusion of "the transfer of parts of the civilian population of an occupying power into occupied territory" as a war crime as an example of this, whilst at the same time disagrees with the exclusion of terrorism and drug trafficking. Israel sees the powers given to the prosecutor as excessive and the geographical appointment of judges as disadvantaging Israel which is prevented from joining any of the UN Regional Groups.

So Israel can do as it likes? And so can the US? And so can all of the non-signatories and those who have not ratified? Radical and rogue countries without any consideration for anyone else.

Then reason and logic would dictate that anyone can attack Israel and the US without fear of the International Criminal Court? No more active sympathy with 9/11’s or WW II?

Does this also mean that the actions of the Nazis was not an infringement of international law if as Morrella states - there isn't any such law!

And of course my old question remains unanswered - why should any of the ICC signatories even consider new Israel is a state of any kind?

Now here is a true Israeli hero

Banged up for 18 years in an effort to cover up Shimon Peres crimes. Let us not forget it was also Peres who started the illegal settlements and who claims to be a holocaust surivivor even though he was already living in Palestine before the war.

It was Peres who did over Arafat when they won their joint "peace" prize which was the biggest farce in history.

No wonder Vanunu does not want to be on the Oslo peace prize list.

Like, lump it, it doesn't matter

Ernest William: "I believe that the American government, heavily manipulated by the Zionist Lobby, cares little about international law or human rights whenever they don’t suit them."

The American Government, similar to any government, works for its own perceived advantage. Sure, it disregards others' law, when that law doesn't suit. Similar to any other government, really. There isn't any such thing as an all encompassing "international law". Even the people most involved with the concept would admit it's mostly a political solution. That's not "real" law.

Unfortunately, the views of the Zionists receive special treatment in Australia with a strange sort of inverted sense of “free speech” while at the same time claiming to be part of the moral high ground.

Nations generally support the things they know best. In America and Australia, Jews are far more established than Arabs. Israel is far more established in the general mindset. I really don't see this changing. No matter the protests.

In Boston they supported the IRA. In Russia they supported Serbia. In China they supported North Korea etc... All stands up to basic logic to be honest.

Australia (and let's be brutally honest) enjoys an American defensive umbrella. Australians can pretend or deny this all they like, yet their neighbors openly state the fact. This allows Australia to direct otherwise defensive spending toward other areas. A privilege many places (mostly all places) don't enjoy.

Let's say, Mr William, that no matter the protests of you, and your ilk, American policy makers know you don't intend on ever changing a thing, they've always known it. And so do every single one of your possible "hostile" neighbors. And for Australians, that's a very good thing.

Like it or lump it

In my experience, the teaching of right and wrong was considered paramount by our parents of any nationality or religion, even before the three R's.

Before a matter is allowed to take up the time of the court, there is a hearing sometimes called a mention. America has a similar system .

The right of the Zionists to do what they have done was wrong in legal and moral terms from the beginning, and that issue would not pass muster.

If however, the Australian High Court dealt with the situation in Gaza they would be obliged to accept on the evidence that legally, the Palestinians are firing home-made rockets into their own land and "devil take the hindmost", but they are aware that they are endangering the invaders of the country.

However, the Zionist invasion and occupation of Palestinian lands has no value in morality or international law.

I am afraid that the goal of a new Israel has defied all elements of decency, beliefs in international law and the UN Charter of Human Rights.

In essence, this Palestinian invasion is an attack on the very basis of civilisation.

It is an interesting fact that only the powers that be support the Zionist's illegal invasion - as far as I can tell, the world experts in the fields of law and justice all condemn that action but then - they have no political or financial gain to be otherwise.

Hamas is the tool of others

Hamas itself has enjoyed the support of various states, on and off.

It's supported by both Syria and Iran, and has at various times had the support of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Jordan.

Unquestionably, those countries have supported Hamas for their own, not others', interests.

The previous King Hussein of Jordan, for example, supported Hamas to help weaken Yasser Arafat, whom he considered a threat to Hussein's claim to speak on behalf of "his people" the Palestinians.

King Hussein's support for Hamas was far from being unconditional, and was always balanced against his having already recognised Israel and his alliance with the USA.

Kuwait's support for Hamas ended because Hamas opposed the US war on Saddam in Gulf War One.

The primary role of Hamas to Middle Eastern states is to be used as a pawn to leverage opportunities between other regional states and with the West.

Hamas itself is a joke, however. A gruesome joke, but a joke nonetheless.

Why Hamas started

Eliot, Hamas started because Fatah is corrupt to the core and the Palestinians got sick to death of them. If you cannot read a book and get to the guts of the matter one has to ask if you are really reading the thing or cherry picking a bit here and there.

And Paul Morrella, you might be right but here is the thing with the world - the Arabs have the oil.

And the world will never give up that oil.

And Eliot, the Israeli courts have legitimised murder by Israelis.

Stand firm

G'day Marilyn. The supporters of new Israel in this forum are beyond reason and logic.

They have tried to box you into a situation where you are defending your truths rather than being credited for them.

Most, if not all of their comparisons are merely a B.B.H. style of diversion.

Stick to your guns Marilyn - you are right in every aspect so far as I can see. Let them prove you wrong or be quiet and let the forum decide by reasoning and logic.

I wonder why they think they help Israel

We saw part of this on SBS news last night.   Not one other news service covered it even though it is terribly gruesome.

He is not the first foreigner to be shot by the Israelis for daring to protest the apartheid wall and no doubt he will not be the last.

As for the ziocons though thinking they help Israel with their blind support - the many brilliant Israelis who work for peace with the cousins in Israel and Palestine don't think you help much.

In fact, all you do is legitimise this brutal gunning down of this man with banned weapons.

Avigdor Lieberman thinks all the 11,000 Palestinians held illegally in Israel's prisons should be drowned in the Red Sea yet he wants that ignorant little oik Shalit back.

Hamas laws may legitimise Jewish payback killings of Gazans

Hamas's imposition of Shari'a law in Gaza may provide a legal basis for the surviving Israeli families of suicide bombing victims to kill relatives of the bombers as payback.

Also, a Jewish group is considering using suicide bombers against Palestinians in Gaza, based on Hamas laws which make suicide bombing for political purposes legal in Hamas controlled territory.

ABC correspondent Philip Williams spoke to the Israeli group's organiser, lawyer Meir Schijveschuurder, who lost much of his family in a Palestinian suicide attack:

"If they go to, let's say, Palestine, Gaza Strip - the Hamas is the government over there - then we going to act in the same law, the same Shari'a that mean blood under blood. You know, the children or the brother have all the rights to do it back, and we're going to do it."

That's an interesting twist, isn't it?

Fiona: Oh sure, Eliot, provided you like your twists spiralling into an all-engulfing blood feud on all sides.

Precedent studies jurisprudence

Fiona, it's an appalling prospect, and probably totally illegal under Israeli law. But one more example of how the blinkered incompetence of Hamas has a terrific tendency to blow-back on it massively.

It's also a startling demonstration of the risks connected with backing a group like Hamas. If you can justify what they're doing, you can hardly criticise others who do exactly the same.

When things go from funny to even funnier

Eliot Ramsey: "They booked into the Philadelphia Courtyard Marriot.  I'm not kidding."

Lucky for Samah, the Marriott family are at worst, Mormons.

It gets funnier still...

One of those arrested was Abu Marzook. His American attorney was Stanley L. Cohen.

Wake up Australia

Power corrupts and absolute power.....?

I am thankful at the "wake up" call we are all having in the civilised world concerning the frightening power of the Zionist Lobby in the US, especially in foreign policy.

At this site I found an entry that should have been one of the many warnings we have had with this subject.

I quote just part of that article:

"In the wake of Israel's massive assault on heavily populated civilian areas of the Gaza Strip earlier this year, Amnesty International called for the United States to suspend military aid to Israel on human rights grounds. Amnesty has also called for the United Nations to impose a mandatory arms embargo on both Hamas and the Israeli government. Unfortunately, it appears that President Barack Obama won't be heeding Amnesty's call."

"During the fighting in January, Amnesty documented Israeli forces engaging in "direct attacks on civilians and civilian objects in Gaza, and attacks which were disproportionate or indiscriminate." The leader of Amnesty International's fact-finding mission to the Gaza Strip and southern Israel noted how "Israeli forces used white phosphorus and other weapons supplied by the USA to carry out serious violations of international humanitarian law, including war crimes." Amnesty also reported finding fragments of U.S.-made munitions "littering school playgrounds, in hospitals and in people's homes."

I feel that I belong to a lost country when this sort of thing is happening in a world which should have learned some lessons from the many bloody wars that have been provoked, orchestrated or just plain decided upon – like Iraq!

I believe that the American government, heavily manipulated by the Zionist Lobby, cares little about international law or human rights whenever they don’t suit them.

Unfortunately, the views of the Zionists receive special treatment in Australia with a strange sort of inverted sense of “free speech” while at the same time claiming to be part of the moral high ground.

If anyone in this day and age believes that we Australians are isolated from the horrific abuses of human rights by the new Israelis, they are only adopting the pacifist attitude which always precedes a major conflict.

A bit hypocritical

Ernest William, how much do you think the Zionists were involved in the Rudd government's descision to make it a criminal offence (7 years in gaol) to protest at Pine Gap.

How could this happen in a nation controlled by Labor.

I refer you to a contribution you made in 2007.  Are you willing to accept these laws as long as Labor and the American Military/Corporate control things?

Fiona: Welcome to Webdiary, John Fuller.

Amnesty International

Ernest, what do you make of the fact that Amnesty International also called for an arms embargo on Hamas?

Fiona, it is nonsense

Did you bother to read the report? They state in it that Hamas is not getting any weapons really from overseas.

In fact the only weapons Hamas have from overseas are those supplied by the US in their failed coup in 2007 when the US supplied $83 million in guns and ammo and Israel let it in to the strip.

I guess you forgot the bit about AI calling for a total arms embargo from the 20 nations supplying millions of kilos of weapons to the Israelis though.

Hamas must be allowed weapons. The only people on earth who have been told they must completely disarm and be left totally defenceless are Palestinians. Think about that.

Fiona: I guess I didn't forget, Marilyn, but I guess [to meet your inference with one of my own] that you did not read my comment in its context as a response to Ernest's.

Laughable Hamas incompetence when in America

Marilyn's right. Iran's attempts at arming their Hamas proxies have proved a complete and embarassing failure:

Iran is unhappy with the results of the recent Gaza war. They are particularly annoyed at the poor performance of the Palestinians they trained, in the latest tactics and weapons handling techniques...

Also disappointing was the use of longer range rockets by Hamas. While about 600 rockets were fired into Israel during the 22 day campaign, only a few dozen were of the long range BM-21 type, and these did little damage.

The big problem for Hamas is their laughable incompetence.

In fact, Marilyn, you might recall from Paul McGeough's book how Hamas tried to organise in the USA a covert conference of the top Hamas leadership to devise strategies to overturn the Oslo peace accords (pages 75-77)?

They booked into the Philadelphia Courtyard Marriot.  I'm not kidding.

To disguise what they were up to, they were 'careful' in their planning and communications with each other to not ever use the word 'Hamas'.

Instead, they always use the word 'Samah'. 'Hamas' spelled backwards.

I'm not making this up:

Every word uttered, in conference sessions and calls from one room to another, had been captured. FBI photographers were in the shrubbery, snapping the attendees as they came and went. And a few days later, the FBI were back at the Marriot, photocopying the credit card stubs and the invoices for their $50 discount rooms. The FBI had everything, except the launrdy lists.

- McGeough, ibid, p 77.

It's rank stupidity like that which has made them so popular with the Left intelligentsia, I'd say.

I agree

G'day Fiona. In a perfect world I would like to see all arms banned - they are not needed to maintain life. But of course the military/corporate would oppose that.

Also in a perfect world, Hamas are committing a crime themselves and should not be firing rockets even if it is at the people who are occupying their lands. They should have taken any peaceful means available to them, but they were not.  King Abdullah knew and warned that in 1947.

Fiona, IMHO the situation is that, the most powerful military corporations in the world have decided that Palestine will be a new Israel with all of the consequences that implies.  It serves no useful purpose in terms of peace or human rights - it merely returns us to the days of might is right.

And if Jerusalem was a free city to all who want to believe, there would be no legally justifiable reason for this conflict at all.

What does a weaker people do when they are slowly but surely divested of their homes, their lands and their livelihood? And their lives?

The United States of America is the biggest terrorist in the world today and only uses the UN as a pawn for their foreign policies.  But I digress.

IMHO there is plenty of excuses for the new Israelis in the media controlled by the powers that be, but it is left to people like Australians I hope to think about a "fair go" .

http://warincontext.org/2009/03/10/a-statement-by-chas-freeman is perhaps a sad example as to how the hope of having an unbiased and experienced view on the Middle East was destroyed by the powers that be.

I agree with Marilyn. Jordan is Palestine.

Ernest William: "They should have taken any peaceful means available to them, but they were not.  King Abdullah knew and warned that in 1947."

You're going to love this, Ernest. Indormation Clearinghouse here have a long speech from King Addullah saying that Jordan is Palestine.

Take this line from the King about Jewish settlers in Palestine:

"We do not want them in ours, either. Not because they are Jews, but because they are foreigners. We would not want hundreds of thousands of foreigners in our country, be they Englishmen or Norwegians or Brazilians or whatever."

The King repeatedly says that Jordan is Palestine. Palestine is "our country". Over and over.

I'd like to thank Marilyn for having provided a link to the King's speech on February 27, 2009 - 2:56pm.

West Bank part of Jordan, Gaza part of Egypt - both in 1967

Marilyn Shepherd: "Eliot, it doesn't matter if Palestine was part of Jordan in some distant past.  The book is about Hamas."

All of Palestine was part of Jordan as recently as 1919.

In fact, as Paul McGeough points out quite clearly on page 10 of the book, the West Bank was annexed again by Jordan in 1950.

It remained part of Jordan until as recently as 1967.

And Gaza was part of Egypt as recently as 1967.

My 13 year old niece probably thinks 1967 was "in some distant past", Marilyn.

But you were alive in 1967. It's in your lifetime.

A history lesson

Eliot Ramsey: "All of Palestine was part of Jordan as recently as 1919."

And who gave it to the Zionists?

It remained part of Jordan until as recently as 1967.

And who gave it to the Zionists?

And Gaza was part of Egypt as recently as 1967.

And since they are all Arab lands, who gave them to the Zionists who claim to be westerners?

Doesn't matter if Israel was part of Jordan in distant past

Marilyn Shepeherd: "Eliot, it doesn't matter if Palestine was part of Jordan in some distant past."

Ernest, it doesn't matter if Israel was part of Jordan in some distant past. 

And which Zionists "claim to be westerners?"

Are you sure you're not married?

Eliot, and Marilyn, the way you guys argue are you sure you're not married.

You remind me of a couple the have been married for too long.

They will argue over anything.

Point scoring is what its all about.

Cheers John



It depends on who is being murdered, obviously

Marilyn Shepherd: "And Jews never, ever kill their own, do they?"

On March 14, 2009 - 9:15pm you said about the demonstrably false claims of a "Leningrad" style "massacre" of Palestinians at Jenin that "it does not take away from the atrocity if only 52 people were murdered does it?"

Yet oddly, a deliberate Hamas programme of murdering hundreds of helpless Palestinian prostitutes in Gaza is, it seems, mitigated on the grounds that other people "kill their own" too.

And Hamas murdering scores of civilian Jews in the days leading up to and during the Jenin attack is excused on the grounds that it represented some sort of, what? Self defence by those doing the suicide bombings before the Jenin attack?

Is that because in your view, Palestinian prostitutes and elderly Jews are worth less as people than the Hamas thugs who slit their throats or blow them to smithereens?

Or is there some other explanation?

Marilyn, did you read all of the statistics in McGeough's book?

Marilyn Shepherd: This is the most chilling report from Jenin that I have ever read."

Talking about Jenin and statistics, this is from Paul McGeough's book, Kill Khalid. (Allen & Unwin, 2009).

On page 274-278, Paul recounts how an Islamist campaign of suicide bombings against civilian targets in Israel led directly to the IDF attack on Jenin.

The first of these suicide bomb attacks was the Passover Massacre at the Park Hotel on 27 March 2002 (page 274 of McGeough).

Five days later, another stupid suicide bomber attacked the Matza restaurant at Haifa. (page 275).

Total dead: 45, all civilians, mostly elderly.

The immediate result, Israeli retaliation at Jenin.

This is what Paul says on page 278 about Jenin;

"When the shooting stopped, fifty-two Palestinians and twenty-three Israelis were dead"."

During the "siege" of Jenin, the usual claque of leftist propaganda lackeys in the West variously compared it with the siege of Leningrad, the bombing of Dresden and the World Trade Centre disaster.

Actual result: 52 dead Pelstinians, 68 dead Israelis. And Yasser Arafat completely humiliated and reduced to asking Arial Sharon for permission to cross his own compound to go to the toilet.

But what are you saying, Marilyn? 

Paul McGeough's book is wrong about the outcome at Jenin?

Statistics from McGeough: Israel most democratic in Middle East

In keeping with my practice of being the only person on this thread to actually quote anything by Paul McGeough, here are some more statistics from him published in a chart accompanying his feature article on page 6 of the Sydney Morning Herald's 'News Review' liftout for this weekend, March 14-15, 2009.

Sydney readers can confirm these.

Titled 'Political Freedom Index', the chart rates political freedom in 18 separate Middle Eastern nations on a scale of one-to-ten "with one being the lowest score and 10 the highest."

Israel far-and-away ranks the best with a score of 8.2 with Lebanon a distant second best at 6.55.

Hamas sponsor Syria ranks equal worst at 2.8, along with fellow Hamas sponsor Saudi Arabia, while the other main Hamas sponsor Iran comes in third worst at 3.85.

Even feudal Morocco manages 5.2, by the way.

Marilyn, is Paul McGeough correct about this? Or is he mistaken?

Would, in your view, Syrian, Saudi and Iranian sponsorship of Hamas perhaps explain its incredible, though now very well documented state-sponsored brutality and tyrannical rule in Gaza?

Should the "peace movement" go on hiding these facts? Is that morally acceptable?

The bits he wants

Eliot, what does one say to someone who reads the bits he wants and can't be bothered with the rest?

Yes, the book details the crimes committed by Hamas but have you bothered with the history of why those crimes were committed?

And no, McGeough was not wrong about Jenin, he wrote that in 2002 not long after it happened. He was though shot at by the IDF as he tried to enter and it does not take away from the atrocity if only 52 people were murdered does it? The Israelis whine that 13 soldiers were killed in an "ambush" but they were invading Jenin which is Palestine.

I am so tired of your nonsense, Eliot, and your complete lack of interest in the other side so why are you bothering to read the book?

You already know all the answers, don't you?

Paul McGeough: Gaza was formerly part of Egypt

Marilyn Shepherd: "You already know all the answers, don't you?"

Well, I'm asking you, Marilyn. Is Paul wrong when he says repeatedly through the book that all of Jordan was formerly Palestine.

And that Gaza was formerly part of Egypt (pages 41 and 45)?

Should Hamas hand Gaza back to Egypt? The Gazans would be better off, after all.

The book is about Hamas

Eliot, it doesn't matter if Palestine was part of Jordan in some distant past.  The book is about Hamas.


Palestinian deaths in the West Bank, 2002

December: 26
November: 29
October: 22
September: 26
August: 28
July: 19
June: 37
May: 20
April: 211
March: 141
February: 40
January: 17
Total: 616

Israeli civiian killed by Palestine in WB in 2002

December: 2
November: 1
October: 4
September: 3
August: 5
July: 15
June: 13
May: 4
April: 4
March: 10
February: 10
January: 2
Total: 73

Israeli defence personnel killed by Palestinians in WB in 2002

December: 4
November: 12
October: 3
September: 2
August: 0
July: 2
June: 4
May: 2
April: 26
March: 15
February: 11
January: 1
Total: 82

Now Eliot. These figures are not in McGeoughs book because he is writing a book about Hamas, but they have to be considered.

Paul McGeough: Jordan was Palestine

Marilyn Shepherd: "Eliot do you ever read anything or simply rely on what the Zionists claim to be the truth."

This is from Paul McGeough's book, Kill Khalid. (Allen & Unwin, 2009). This is about the immediate post-World War One period:

"The region was a veritable postage stamp, on which contemporary rivalries -  territorial, religious and political  - predated the Great Powers’ division of the Ottoman Empire at the end of World War 1, a carve up that was based entirely on Western interests. Later, what had been historic Palestine became Jordan, Israel, and the Palestinian occupied territories.."

- page 21

 Then this about the 1960s and '70s...

"Amidst talk of an overthrow and the seizure of Jordan as the basis for a new Palestinian state [by the PLO and Fatah], King Hussein struggled to control his realm."

 -  page 24

 Then this...

"The King clung to the belief that he among Arab leaders was the rightful representative of the Palestinian people. With the exception of the tissue-sized Gaza Strip, all of the putative Palestinian state had, for a time being, been formerly Jordanian."

-  page 26

So, Marilyn. Paul McGeough is stating clearly there that Jordan was Palestine. And even that Arafat's PLO was trying to take over Jordan to set up a Palestinian state.

Is that your understanding?

If so, should Jordan give back all of its ‘stolen’ lands to Palestine?

If not, why not?

Charles Freeman

Given the interest in the Zionist lobby, surprised no one has yet stepped forward with this purler about US Jewish lobby interference in even top-level US security issues ("US intelligence chief blames Israel lobby for departure", 13/3,  the Australian newspaper).

Seems not even US intelligence can operate without Zionist lobby oversight.

Why not just hand the keys of to the missile silos in Colorado over,  just declaring them as the latest acquisition in the growth of Eretz Israel?

Terrible when you have to cede control not only of even  your own life to outsiders, but without anything better than their say so, as a lame excuse.

Israel's moral army in Jenin


This is the most chilling report from Jenin that I have ever read.

The world's most moral army hey?

Hamas's moral army in Gaza: killing prostitutes by the hundreds

Marilyn Shepherd: "The world's most moral army hey?"

This from Paul McGeough's book Kill Khalid (page 65) about the Hamas take-over of Gaza neighbourhoods during the first Intifada (1987), quoting Shalom Harari, senior Israeli Arabist :

"They took control of the streets - burning liquor shops, and killing prostitutes - hundreds of them. Arafat was sending his terror cells to murder senior Islaminsts, and the Islamiists were beating and stabbing Fatah activists"

This quoting McGeough directly, same page:

"As communities were cleansed of drugs, prostitution, and gambling, the mosques controlled by Yassin became places of politics as much as prayer."

So, murdering hundreds of prostitutes at a time, as early as 1987? Killing hundreds of fellow Palestinians, without firing a shot at the IDF?

Is Paul correct about that, Marilyn?

The world's most moral army hey?

Jesus Eliot

And not one other nation on earth has murders of their own do they?   Not one.  Australia never has murders, or the US, or the UK, or China, or Zimbabwe, or anywhere else on Earth.

And Jews never, ever kill their own, do they?   

Why we support Hamas in Gaza - they massacre prostitutes

 Marilyn Shepherd: "And not one other nation on earth has murders of their own do they?"

Well, according to Paul McGeough in the book which you are reviewing on this thread, the current governing party of Gaza spent a good deal of its early activity mass-murdering prostitutes.

As an expression of its moral standpoint.

Apart from perhaps the government of Iran, which of course is a major backer of Hamas, or maybe the Taliban formerly in power in Afghanistan, also big fans of Hamas, do you know of any governments other than Hamas which busy themselves roaming the streets massacring prostitutes?

By the hundreds? As Paul points out in his book?

Thanks for recommending the book, though. It's great. I'm buying copies as presents for all my friends. I'm quoting it all over cyberspace.

I heartily urge everyone to read it.


Fiona: Could you possibly get your review to us in the next day or so, Eliot? Thanks.

Enough hypocrites here to choke a horse


And look, the big bad meanie didn't eat the poor little widdle pollies.

Hamas/Fatah morals

Marilyn, how about this little story to chill the blood and show you what the Israelis have to put up with? Be sure to read all the article especially the bit where it says the Palestinians have killed more Palestinians than the Israelis.

Then we have the debilitating nature of the conflict that has split communities in the Palestinian territories as political rivals Hamas and Fatah play out a deadly battle for supremacy, delaying indefinitely any hope of a peace with Israel that would give Palestinians a sovereign state.

What must it be like to have some of your own people (Fatah & Hamas) come and take you away and torture you?

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
© 2006, Webdiary Pty Ltd
Disclaimer: This site is home to many debates, and the views expressed on this site are not necessarily those of the site editors.
Contributors submit comments on their own responsibility: if you believe that a comment is incorrect or offensive in any way,
please submit a comment to that effect and we will make corrections or deletions as necessary.