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Ask not for whom the Pell extolls, it's not for thee
The role of a priest in a community is to represent faith and trust in the tenets of a religion, to be an embodiment of the concepts being espoused. It's bad enough that the jokes about pirests and altar boys ("a Mars Bar and a packet of crisps" ends the one I know) don't have any fun to them any more, their inherent satire becoming replaced by a sense of thruth. But now it's worse.
The Australian figurehead of the Catholic Church, while demanding and enforcing what he considers to be appropriate behaviour from the secular community, has allowed one of his ministers to behave appallingly without taking action that those outside his church would be expected to take. It now appears that Pell might also have gone to the lengths of bullying a complainant into not challenging the reputation of a priest who was already known to be tarnished, for the sake perhaps of avoiding litigation.
Now the pigeons are coming home to roost. World Youth Day is around the corner that Pell has painted himself into. He's in the classic political situation of having to deny he's going to resign, which no doubt means he knows hie's not swimming in holy waters. \
Can his archdiocese still consider him an appropriate representative to their Pontiff?
Here;s the transcript from last night's ABC Lateline to help consider the question:
CONOR DUFFY, REPORTER: Last night Anthony Jones told Lateline how he was sexually assaulted by a Sydney priest, Father Terence Goodall.
Letters and a report published by Lateline show that Archbishop George Pell subsequently misrepresented the findings of the church's own investigation into that attack.
Anthony Jones says Cardinal Pell's actions destroyed the faith that had been the bedrock of his life.
ANTHONY JONES, ABUSE VICTIM: It affected me the same way as Father Goodall sexually assaulting me. Cardinal Pell assaulted me by his words all over again.
CONOR DUFFY: Today Cardinal Pell was forced to put aside last minute preparations for World Youth Day to respond to the serious questions over his handling of the case.
Among them, why he wrote to Anthony Jones saying:
CARDINAL GEORGE PELL (Voiceover): No other complaint of attempted sexual assault has been received against Father Goodall.
CONOR DUFFY: When he knew there had been, and in fact had written to another of Father Goodall's victims accepting his allegation on the same day he wrote to Mr Jones.
All just a poor choice of words according to Cardinal Pell.
CARDINAL GEORGE PELL: The letter to Mr Jones was badly worded and a mistake.
CONOR DUFFY: Cardinal says his description of the type of crime in the letter caused the confusion. When the Anthony Jones matter was investigated, church investigator Howard Murray recommended to Cardinal Pell that the allegations raised by Anthony Jones be sustained.
However when Cardinal Pell wrote to Jones he claimed:
CARDINAL GEORGE PELL (Voiceover): Mr Murray was of the opinion that the complaint of attempted aggravated sexual assault cannot be considered to have been substantiated.
CONOR DUFFY: Today Cardinal Pell said that too was an innocent mistake, not a fabrication.
CARDINAL GEORGE PELL: No that is an overstatement I acknowledge that.
REPORTER: Is it an overstatement or is it just not true and made up?
CARDINAL GEORGE PELL: No because I accepted the basic conclusions of Murray, that the charges were substantiated.
REPORTER: Why did you say then Mr Murray was of the opinion that the complaint of aggravated sexual assault cannot be considered to be substantiated when Murray said nothing of the sort.
CARDINAL GEORGE PELL: Because I'd come to that conclusion after advice and considering the matter and also confirming that all along Goodall insisted that it was consensual, and he confirmed that to me.
REPORTER: But why did you contribute that to Mr Murray...
CARDINAL GEORGE PELL: That was an overstatement. That was an innocent error.
CONOR DUFFY: Today Cardinal Pell acknowledged that Howard Murray sustained all of Anthony Jones' allegations.
Lateline has obtained another letter sent by George Pell to Anthony Jones in May 2003.
In that letter Cardinal Pell once again contradicts the findings of the Murray investigation. He wrote:
CARDINAL GEORGE PELL (Voiceover): What cannot be determined by me, however, is whether it was a matter of sexual assault as you state, or homosexual behaviour between two consenting adults as maintained by Father Goodall. In the end it is a matter of your word against his.
CONOR DUFFY: But the report to George Pell had only given the issue of consent passing mention.
CARDINAL GEORGE PELL (Voiceover): He [Father Goodall] agreed generally with Tony's account of the post-swim events at the presbytery although he maintained the move to the bed whilst both men were naked was more consensual than forced upon Tony.
CONOR DUFFY: Ultimately Father Goodall would admit to the non-consensual nature of the pool incident and plead guilty in the district court to indecent assault.
Cardinal Pell's acceptance of Father Goodall's excuse that the incident was consensual infuriated the victim.
ANTHONY JONES: By saying that it was consensual and that there were no other complaints is an absolute disgrace. And I believe that Cardinal Pell should not be Cardinal Pell.
CONOR DUFFY: That Cardinal Pell erred in giving equal weight to the word of Father Goodall and that of his victim, was made clear subsequently when the church investigator sent the Archbishop a report that was scathing about Father Goodall's character.
It found Father Goodall was a serial offender and an ongoing risk.
HOWARD MURRAY, CHURCH INVESTIGATOR (Voiceover): I was struck by the recurring themes of defensiveness, lack of victim empathy and lack of reasonable insight.
CONOR DUFFY: The report also sketches a career long history of problems involving Goodall. And critically finds he committed another offence against another child. In this case a 16 year old girl.
HOWARD MURRAY (Voiceover): I am aware that he has offended against a 10/11 year old male, a 16 year old female, and that he has made admissions to fondling a young adult male without his consent.
Also he has admitted to the following incidents: namely, propositioning two male seminary students when he was attached to the manly theological faculty, inviting a group of alter boys to strip naked whilst swimming, inviting an adult male to stay over at his parish presbytery, and of having a consensual sexual experience with an adult male.
PAUL COLLINS, AUTHOR AND FORMER PRIEST: To me there's a kind of lurking question here, the abuse of the altar boy for instance that he mentions in his letter.
I mean did he report that to the police? This is kind of, this is the essence of the story it seems to me.
PROFESSOR MARK FINDLAY, SYDNEY UNIVERSITY: Well I think it reveals that this church, like other churches, start off from a position which is how can we minimise fire damage.
And perhaps as other churches have found, and the Catholic Church has found, the real consideration is how do we restore public confidence and how do we put forward a positive approach to considerations that relate to sexual abuse
CONOR DUFFY: Late tonight the church told Lateline that it had informed police about the assault on the 11 year old altar boy.
And the church said it only became aware of the offence against the 16 year old girl when father Goodall admitted to it in June 2003.
The church says the priest did not disclose the name of the girl, she's never been identified.
So far George Pell says he hasn't informed the Vatican of the controversy. Paul Collins says he won't have to.
PAUL COLLINS: I'm sure they would be aware of what's happening and I'm sure they would be looking at it carefully.
CONOR DUFFY: Cardinal Pell today apologised to Anthony Jones and suggested that should be the end of the matter.
REPORTER: Not a very good opener for the World Youth Day is it?
CARDINAL GEORGE PELL: Please God we'll be over this before the World Youth Day.
CONOR DUFFY: That's just seven days away
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All edified now
Thankyou, Ian McDougall. Nuanced indeed, and I am rather at a loss as to why the Pope urges Africans to practise chastity, while evidently not demanding it from Diocesan priests.
Silly semantics and nonsense.
Promise: A declaration assuring that one will or will not do something; a vow.
Celibacy: Abstinence from sexual intercourse, especially by reason of religious vows.
Chastity: The condition or quality of being pure or chaste.
Of course all religious are called to a chaste life. They are all required to live a life of celibacy - priests, nuns, and brothers. Them's the rules. Unfortunately, there are some who break the rules.
But hey guys, who am I to spoil your party? Whatever floats your boat.
If you are really interested in the truth, check out the Vatican Website. After all, one cardinal does not a religion make.
Prerequisites
And this: Prerequisites for ordination.
Can. 1037 An unmarried candidate for the permanent diaconate and a candidate for the presbyterate are not to be admitted to the order of diaconate unless they have assumed the obligation of celibacy in the prescribed rite publicly before God and the Church or have made perpetual vows in a religious institute.
Archimedes' Principle
Kathy, very good. Very good indeed.
My boat is now afloat.
Vatican Website
Here is something to get you started .
The oblligations and rights of clerics.
Can. 277 §1. Clerics are obliged to observe perfect and perpetual continence for the sake of the kingdom of heaven and therefore are bound to celibacy which is a special gift of God by which sacred ministers can adhere more easily to Christ with an undivided heart and are able to dedicate themselves more freely to the service of God and humanity.
A pig of fine manners!
Pope says sorry for 'evil' of clergy sex abuse
How much more meaningful it would have been had he stated, unequivocally, that any person associated with the church who failed to immediately report to the police any allegation of sexual attack would be expelled from the church without further ado.
Michael, I was obliged to be in the city most of Friday afternoon. With brief stops I was trailing along behind a tight-knit group banging drums and moving purposefully along the road being shepherded by a chaperone. When finally I passed them they had stopped outside a pub, and were standing looking very lost.
Throughout the afternoon I was moving constantly among drifting young people much the same as those who have stayed too long inTamworth during the music festival look, or those who have been at a days-long party which has not yet finished.
You can hardly blame them! Listening to old, cross-dressing men who have either eliminated that from their lives which to the majority is normal and significant, or worse, are simply hypocrites must be wearing on the most faithful.
As for the rest, in a contest of alcohol-fuelled young hormones vs ‘faith’ I would offer ten to one in favour of the hormones!
Justin, I love your famous pig song! I am totally in sympathy with the pig.
Friends of mine owned a small chain of shops, and I was invited to the dinner that was normally held when the major shareholder was in town. A friend who was to stay at my place overnight drank himself legless. The young manager of the shop said that I would have to get a taxi to take Bill home.
Five minutes walk from Town Hall station, five minutes walk at Bondi junction, get a taxi?
They asked where Bill was going to sleep. My response was in the gutter, in back of the shop — which was a few doors away — I really did not care.
To their outraged ‘but he is your friend’, I simply replied that I do not take drunks home.
The young manager took him home to their place.
The Benedictine Mass...
And so the great mass is over. Some 400,000 are claimed to have gathered for the spectacular service. No doubt the usual bullshit will be carried on by those so disposed arguing the toss and claiming no one has counted properly, the figures are exaggerated and “you couldn’t possibly fit that many, etc. Matters diddly-squat: the numbers in the “Southern Cross precinct” (Centennial Park/Randwick) will have easily surpassed that reasonable figure.
It would appear that all who attended seemed well pleased with the mass: smiles, tears and not a little religious fervour. Not surprising given the faultless service attended by a frocked army of ecclesiastical invasion led by Benedict XV, the as yet to be Great. The centre point of the mass, the sacrament of the Eucharist, went off without any great hassle – amazing given the numbers.
This was, to me, one of the more interesting aspects. The news had been that Benedict would require receivers to both kneel and accept the host on the tongue – a throwback to times well past. Others, receiving from priests amongst the crown, would not be required to kneel in this fashion. And so it happened. It is difficult to remember the last time I received communion in this fashion – probably at my first back in the mid sixties.
This, of course, tallies with Benedict’s intimation in his homily that the Church needs to reinvigorate its traditions. Apparently not kneeling for communion is an act of irreverence:
Well, as they would, as they would. It’s hard to escape the notion that this practice will have applied to the crowds only for the lack of space to supervene. It is though an indicator of where Benedict is going:
Tied to the notion of the respect for and re-invigoration of the beautiful liturgical tradition of the Roman Catholic Church, Benedict would like to see greater use of the Latin or Tridentine mass. The rationale given is that little Latin has been used post Vatican II after priests were allowed to conduct the mass in “the vernacular”. The priest giving “expert commentary” on the televised service intoned that this was a good way to go because Latin was the “the language of the Church”. By adoption, yes it is. It is also the language of such pagans as Titus Livius, Gaius Julius Caesar and Cicero: in short the language of empire; the language of power. Much as French was after the Norman invasion of Britain.
The Church had little choice in “its” language. It took root in a Roman world and therefore adopted, as time went by, its language. Much (written) in the east was still in Attic koine, the widespread Greek of commerce throughout the eastern Greek world of the Seleucids and Ptolemies. As the Roman west corroded and crumbled into history, the Catholic Church adopted its capital and, inter alia, its language.
It is somewhat difficult to find examples in the primary sources (the Gospels) of Christ conducting his business in Latin. It will likely have been in koine if not Hebrew. Further, there seems no evidence of the apostles kneeling in respect to eat at the last supper which we Catholics now “do in memory” of him in the mass. There is evidence in the source material of the “Holy Spirit” allowing the apostles to be heard by those they addressed in “their own tongues”. Sounds a good basis for priests delivering the mass in “the vernacular” to me.
Latin is a largely forgotten language and exists as a language of history in much the same way as archaic Greek in the classical corpus. It certainly is not a language in wide use in Australia but, according to Inside the Vatican magazine, we need to be brought into line:
Seems I’d best brush up on my Latin – all one year of it thirty-eight years ago.
Father Park
Truly a miricale
What a miraculous Mass it must have been, Father Park, with Benedict XV celebrating it. He died in 1922. Perhaps he was a Buddhist. What a terrible thought - to live life, achieve the Pontificate and be sent back to do it again.
Practice makes perfect I suppose.
Endangered species
But if he's very, very good, he may come back as a spotted quoll, or even Miriquoll, and then aim for rebirth as a Thylacaleo. And then finally as a Willy Wagtail, Earth's highest lifeform.
Rinpoche Dr Jack Woodforde, OAM, wildlife vet, Lhasa & Emu Park
II
If Latin is redundant, what then Roman numerals??
Father Park
Scott: Redundant outside academia Michael. Even the Israelis use Arabic numerals.
III
The fellow who was the subject of this thread, Cardinal George Pell, gave a seemingly fulsome speech of praise and acknowledgement at the mass's end. The Cardinal managed to thank the Holy Father and those with him, the federal and state governments, the world's pilgrim's for travelling to Australia - a place not the easiest to travel to, and, naturally, the hard work of the Catholic Clergy including - but not limited to - Bishop Anthony Fisher in geting this event to its conclusion.
In all of that Uncle George, in his sainted ignorance (or arrogance), utterly and totally neglected to even mention those that actually made this work "on the ground". Not even a nod to the schools and their staff that provided the accommodation - including the Islamic school up the road; not a wink to those WYD volunteers who arrived at these schools at 05:30 to arrange and serve food for the pilgrims; nor even a word for school pricipals, like my sister in law, who gave up (like her staff) the holiday to run the night shifts ensuring that no damage was done to the schools or to the pilgrims. Not a bloody word.
The Catholic Clergy ran the lot - with some government help. Good onya George...
Father ParkDivine hand
Not surprised Michael, you're right but it would have been nice and better if it had come from the pope.
I'd forgive Pell for the oversight but not for his urging people to produce more sprogs. Why doesn't the church proclaim "be fruitful and multiply" fulfilled?
BTW, I've found another use for Roman numerals; I always prefer them on my timepiece faces.
PS Since starting this the news has been on and half way through the conclusion of WYD I switched on to the speech by Cardinal Bishop?
He at least was generous in his thanks to the volunteers.
Now the pope's kicked in and fulfilled my wish.
Yes, it's probably been a pain the arse for no few but I'm glad for the thousands of people who've taken so much from this event.
IV
Nice to see someone remembered, Scott. Pell was the Cardinal in whose city the whole thing happened. It might have polite, at the very least - since he went out of his way to thank the clergy and government, to spare a word for the veritable army of volunteers that gave of their time to actually make this function.
Even the local parish priest, with whom I do not always agree, was a sleep deprived wreck by week's end. That and more for the volunteers.
I didn't see the speeches you're referring - a lot won't if it happened this morning - but I'd suggest two things: yesterday was the time for it (it was the "concluding mass") and it speaks to Cardinal Pell's attitude that he demonstrably forgot, at best, or neglected, at worst, these people.
Father Park
Eye eye!
Oh dear, appears I forgot "I". Indeed I will brush up on my Latin: anyone dead that long celebrating mass today might possibly best be obeyed...
Father Park
Pigs
We are all in the gutter, but some can walk away:
I suppose you know how it feels, Claude old chap, er cat.
sisters
How would you know that they were nuns?
The fine, intelligent women I knew as nuns took the advice of John 23rd and lost their habits. Then largely lost their apprentices, as it happened: the uniform is so much part of the job's attraction, is it not? Whatever the area?
Cannier folk ignored John and kept their wimples, just as the boys kept their brocade dresses and gorgeous hats. Stunning outfits, really. I expect that the nuns who ignored John 23 are the ones that you will recognise.
Kathy, once upon a time, in Catholicism, your first choice in marriage was your last choice, irrespective of misery. Has this changed?
Once upon a time in Catholicism.
F. Kendall: "Kathy, once upon a time, in Catholicism, your first choice in marriage was your last choice, irrespective of misery. Has this changed?"
Well, F.Kendall, I have, as you probably would have noticed, been married before. I divorced my first husband and subsequently obtained an annulment from the church, before marrying again, in the church.
I obtained my annulment (which, by the way, does not have to go through Rome), which my first husband chose not to defend, on "causes of a psychological nature".
Interestingly, being infertile (which my first husband was) is not grounds for annulment.
Of freedom, alcohol & godliness
Marilyn, I wondered if anybody else saw it! Pie eyed Canadians having found that the drinking age here is 18 as opposed to 21 inCanada
Anyway, youngsters loose on the piss for first time, no adult supervision, no curfews — one must seriously hope that the lasses are on the pill, that they took advantage of the free condom offer, or preferably both!
The other certainty is that there are going to be sexual predators out there preying on the gullible — not with force or brutality, but guile.
What with bods down with flu, sleeping in large groups in close proximity, unrestricted booze and no oversight. Guess there will be more than memories taken home by these pilgrims.
Anybody else catch up with the news the some have already sought asylum?
And as an aside, are we providing free health services along with everything else?
Strict curfews
I wondered if anybody else saw it! Pie eyed Canadians having found that the drinking age here is 18 as opposed to 21 in Canada. Strange how those respectful of authority function!
Anyway, youngsters loose on the piss for first time, no adult supervision, no curfews...
Curfews there are aplenty. At least at "our" school. There are strict times in and out (so as the great clean up can take place etc.). Feeding times are religiously timed as is time back in accommodations. What state they are in when back in those accommodations...well that's up to the young 'uns. Ours are Poles and so likely wouldn't turn a hair at a few drinks.
Must say the only problem we've had is from the (always) somewhat ungrateful few. And they are few. These do not wish to be fed the food made freely available and served by volunteers such as my wife. Good luck to 'em: go buy your own. Wouldn't be a gathering of human beings without such though.
Disneyworld
I expect those from the US and Canada will be rather surprised at the alcohol age of consent. In those countries it is not permissible to be pissing up until 21. They can, with not a blush, go kill and be killed for God and country.
Ridiculous
Ps: What has become of the formatting tools?
Father ParkSome see mud, others see the stars.
From With a Grain Of Salt:
What a deal
NSW gives the Pope $200 million, and Iemma gets a Vatican coin and a handful of beads.
"...come down to Darling Harbour tomorrow..."
Kathy Farrelly: "To any grumpy sceptics... come down to Darling Harbour...the pilgrims move happily about... the young peoples reactions... these lovely sisters..." etc.
What?
On a full stomach, Kathy?
Bernard Shaw where are you?
The quotation, Kathy Farrelly, is:
We are all in the guttter but some of us are looking at the stars.
Have it your way Malcolm.
Malcolm: "We are all in the guttter but some of us are looking at the stars."
Oh, all right Malcolm have it your way.
I do kinda like the mud bit though. It sorta conjures some really dirty thoughts... ya know?
Fiona: You - you're not a jelly wrestler are you, Kathy?
Many of them are pissed
For once ACA getting down in the dirt did us a favour. Many of these so-called pilgrims from the western countries are pissed and partying and looked and sounded not one bit different to the morons who trashed Gallipoli a few years back or rioted at Cronulla.
Pissed
Marilyn Shepherd, wouldn't you get pissed if you had spent the last couple of days watching an 81 year old man in a frock wasting good money on this trip?
I thought it sad when we saw pictures of the Pope blessing a policeman dying of cancer, whilst the Catholic church wasted money that could be spent on medical research instead.
Could somebody explain why God's main man on earth needs all that police protection and a bullet proof car? He would be well advised not to send his second son down here to straighten us out.
The making of the Miracle Park
Eliot, I went down to take a look at the park, intending to add my support to the protestors.
Wimpy lot of “respect authority” residents who stood their ground when a work cover bloke erected a ribbon, told them that it was now a work site, and ordered them to leave.
They ignored him. He called the cops who then told them to move or they would be arrested for trespass.
(On a public road?)
They explained to me that they then complied with the law.
In the depth of a house block a small park/garden was built with a 175 cm wide footpath on either side.
The garden/park, not more than three metres and perhaps four metres long has a gap of about two metres at the Bourke St end, has a macadamia tree in the centre, and then there is a small square, about half the width of the garden/park, with trellises.
This leads onto the west side ofBourke Rd
This bridge is 465 centimetres wide. All this activity is to gain an extra 115 centimetres, over a length of four or five metres.
Never mind that this road — which is to be closed to residents! — carries football and cricket crowds without any bother, and without banning the residents!
I wonder for how long is it possible to go out of your way to irritate the residents without ending up swinging from a telegraph pole?
Moderator: Seems to me that Annoyed? Inconvenienced? Nah, just incandescent with rage ... & Ask not for whom the Pell extols, its not for thee have morphed.
This could easily go in either.
Fiona: There are several current threads with WYD themes, Peter Hindrup. This to my mind is a Good Thing – except for the agony of deciding where to post one’s comments.
sad, sick and costly!
There are some who wonder why we want noting to do with this sad, sick circus!
Pope praises Rudd's courage for saying sorry
Sex abuse apology doubts
Bishop's comments 'disgusting': rape girls' father
Stop 'dwelling crankily' on sex abuse case: bishop
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Pilgrims in park a prickly issue. VerilySydney
I’m off down to the park.Duncan
Don't worry about the park
Peter. They're going to restore it when they've finished. Put it back the way it was. They must have found a way to put sawn-off bits back onto a tree.
Excuses excuses excuses
Ian: "The celibacy of the priests and members of teaching orders would have contributed to the situation, but abusers are not only found amongst the avowed celibates of the world."
I remember some years ago there was some type of religious convention hosted in Canberra. One of the local working girls mentioned all the local brothels had never seen it so busy.
If a priest wants to get his rocks off then he has choices; some harmless, others not. He knows the difference like all child abusers.
I find it a little hard to believe that celibacy contributes to child abuse, and I doubt that any scientific survey would support same.
People who abuse children will offer all the excuses in the world to shun responsibility for their depravity: it was the drugs, my wife won't give me sex, and so on.
Nope: sex abusers do it because they want to, and go to great lengths to hide their behaviour. The excuses they dig up only reinforce the fact that they are a gutless bunch of wimps.
No caps for the penis
Phillip Adams on the ball in The Australian.
Pell, while urging us to go forth and multiply, must hope that God will be doing his thing with loaves and fishes, otherwise how are we going to feed the masses?
Have they forgotten the world food crisis?
It is time for all religions to move from a human centered moral system to a system of ethics based on environmental principles. The idea of continuous growth – "populate or perish" – is a nonsense.
Populate and perish
John, we're fighting a wilful blindness and I suggest the scales will only fall when disaster strikes. Do you still have faith that humanity can or will save itself?
A hymn competition?
Jenny Hume, I have been fortunate enough to be present at the ceremony where a young woman becomes a nun. The music was sublime: I particularly remember a rising repeat of "quem vidi, quem amavi, in quem credidi, quem dilexi" - whom I have seen, whom I have loved, in whom I believe, and whom I have chosen. The word "divine" seemed appropriate. Similarly, I attended the funeral of a marist brother: male/female choirs singing such as "dies irae" and "de profundis." Eerie, ancient, profound, strange, very beautiful.
I don't know the presbyterian hymns - I severed my v loose connection when they wanted a substantial financial donation to christen my child - (oops, I nearly wrote"christian", there). But I have the great grandad's ancient collection, which I would like to thump out . Can you recommend any particular numbers?
F Kendall - will dig out my old school hymn book
F Kendall, when I am next at the old place I will dig out my old Pressie hymnal as the Rejoice I have here has deleted a lot of the old hymns and renumbered others, and even changed the first lines in some places so they are often hard to find. That was a result of the uniting. I have to be honest and agree that there is very beautiful music in both the Catholic and Anglican church but not all of it appeals to me.
On my trip to Denmark a few years back (grandfather was a Danish Lutheran) I obtained a CD of Danish hymns, with their clear influence on the later and better well known Protestant hymns. They are hauntingly beautiful. If you ever saw Babette's Feast you would have heard one in the opening village church scene.
There is one hymn I cannot get out of my mind. It is The Church's One Foundation is Jesus Christ our Lord, old tune 100. I found one could sing Dorothea McKellar's My Country to it so whenever that hymn was chosen for school morning prayers, that is what I sang instead. I knew the words off by heart because I had been made to learn them in detention by the English mistress. One gets one's education in strange ways at times.
Frankly, the 23rd Psalm (Crinan) takes some beating in my opinion, and also How Great Thou Art but the Pressies cannot claim them as their own. The latter evolved over 30 years as I recall.
Scott, the Wik gives a good background to the Congregationlists. In many ways the Presbyterian Church was more compatible with them than with the Methodists, especially the Free Church of Scotland that was formed after the Disruption of 1842. Both tried to limit the amount of control exercised by the church hierarcy over the congregation. I guess that is why I cannot relate to the Anglican and Roman Catholic churches. Far too much control over the flock, but each to his own. It is the faith that is important to me.
You've been in a lot of detention I see.
Money-grubbing bastard
"I hope to achieve justice in Emma's name for all of the victims that are still alive.... the Church has resisted attempted justice for almost all victims.."
So says the father of a clergy-raped daughter, whom Pell invited into his Toward Healing program.
Pell set up a system with a max payout of $50,000.
I've just read the Herald-Sun story, and am halfway through watching the Lateline interview.Pell 's actions in this case are contemptible.
The Lateline transcript probably won't be up till the morning. I'll post it then.
Tidying up- 130 homeless shunted out of Sydney
ABC
Ian, does the hierarchy of this church really care for people? Hopefully Pell is an exception. I watched him in his fine robes (how many thousand dollars worth?) telling the WYD mass to "listen, listen and pray." I hope they're listening to what this man does in their names.
under the carpet
Richard, they got the idea off the Brazilian authorites back in the 'nineties who actually liquidated hundreds of poor for a little tidy up 'round the Copacabana in readiness for the big Enviro summit they ended up having there.
Funny how the above story wasn't featured like all the woosy-wimpy stuff with the rotten music and sheep-like crowds, though.
A shocking story
Richard, a really terrible story in that link. An abuse of power and authority, and the triumph of experienced and self-deluded age over innocence and childhood. Because no matter what the girl's age, her childhood would have ended when the abuse by the priest began.
The celibacy of the priests and members of teaching orders would have contributed to the situation, but abusers are not only found amongst the avowed celibates of the world.
I can't help thinking also that the hierarchical authority structure contributed to it as well. If all were really regarded as equal before all, as well as before God (which I don't think the hierarchy could really believe), there would not be the motivation found in the Hollingsworths and Pells of the world to cover these situations up.
Confessional
Scott, the anonymous editor is lurking I see. I think I wrote you have been let off detention I see, which has come to pass as you've been in a lot of detention I see.
More than one way to drag a confession out of you it seems.
Now why did I not think of the five pen trick?
108 and blogging. God forbid that I shall still be here doing that by then.
The mother of invention
Jenny: "Now why did I not think of the five pen trick?"
Probably because you didn't get into as much trouble as I. (Goody two shoes.)
On that Scott I would not put my money
"Probably because you didn't get into as much trouble as I. (Goody two shoes.)"
On that dear Scott, I would not put my money. Not if you don't want to lose it.
Maybe I was just smart enough not to get caught. I mean, if you are ordered to take a note to the Head with your sin of Impudence on it, you have to have the nous to look up the dictionary to see what that meant before proceeding. Oh no! I binned that one very smartly.
BTW: I hate shoes and wore them only under protest. Still do. Clothes were a bit of a problem too. My poor mother had to be careful not to cross me when she took me to town as a kid. If I got into a paddy, I'd rip all my clothes off and scream my head off. Just as well Henson was not around back then.
More than once
Yes Jenny and I crafted a special contraption with five pens attached to it for writing lines.
And vale Olive Riley. http://www.allaboutolive.com.au
http://worldsoldestblogger.blogspot.com/
Missing Inaction
Yes, Scott Dunmore, now where did I put my spirograph?
Hmmm...
...now where did I put my spirograph?
Most likely near to where you put your K-Tel Record Selector.
Father Park
Delivering a city in hope of salvation
I hope that Malcolm B. Duncan is wrong in his prediction that the move against the WYP restrictions will fail. It is disastrous if in fact it fails, and aside from that Rachel is a nice kid.
The city’s residents are entitled to enjoy reasonable peace and quiet and free access of their city at all times. The disruption of transport services, the extensive road closures and restriction of parking throughout a vast residential area of the city violate this.
A question that Duncan might answer for us is: Isn’t any person in a position of authority receiving a report of sexual assault or rape obliged to report the matter to the police?
If so, Pell failed to do this, and not only upon this occasion.
Religious institutions and scoutmasters have a rather poor record on the issue of sexual assault, with the catholic church being the worst of all.
Anyone that saw the interview with Pell on the ABC knows that he attempted a whitewash.
Michael and Jacob, a question for you if you care to address it.
Did either of you ever subsequently do anything about those who assaulted you? While I can imagine being in a position where I could do nothing about it at the time, I cannot imagine ever letting it go.
As to the issue of 20 something year old Jones submitting to his assailant —
Sometime in the early sixties the issue of rape and consent was being discussed. One young male was adamant that unless the woman was bruised and broken it could not possibly be rape.
Without a word a friend of mine, Frank, left the lounge in one smooth swoop, threw the male to the floor and had his clothes off in seconds, and without a hint of resistance. This despite the fact that the assaulted was the bigger of the two.
Submission is a survival instinct which can be frequently observed among animals. Alpha males are a potent trigger.
Saving your grace
Peter Hindrup, I do wish people would read what I write not what they think I have written. I merely said that from talking to lawyers on both sides, each side thinks it is going to lose and the action is premature because there has been no arrest and there may be none.
I have just been doing some research, however, which I don't want to make public at the moment, but which leads me to believe that no arrests can take place under Clause 7 of the Regulation in any event (it's the one which includes annoying or inconvenient behaviour towards participants in a declared WYD event).
If I am right, this Government is going to have more egg on its face than a boulder hitting a battery hen-house.
As to your question,
The common law crime is misprison of felony which always had exceptions - legal professional privilege and the confessional being two. The current law in NSW is contained in s 316 of the Crimes Act:
316 Concealing serious indictable offence
I don't seem to be able to find a Regulation at the moment but I am at home and don't have the relevant practice book with me (if I had all of those, I'd have to spend about $500,000 a year on books).
To put your mind at rest to some extent, however, during the course of the argument (or arguendo as we say) Justice Stone pointed out that the Regulation relates to "participants". That is not defined so far as I can see. Accordingly, if you are a protester, I don't see why, if you are in a WDY declared area and you find the behaviour of a pilgrim annoying or inconvenient, you can't ask the nearest Copper to fine the person concerned. Might put the sandal on the other foot as it were.
If anyone does get into trouble with the Fuzz and needs help (not tomorrow - it's my birthday - shared with Dr Reynolds - the birthday, that is) my mobile is 0415 495 214.
Duly chastened!
Malcolm B. Duncan, I apologise sincerely for not reading your piece more carefully. On such matters I know better. Equally I thank you for the detailed response, that was generous of you.
Having read your extracts it seems to me that Pell is not dealing with information gleaned from the confessional, nor could it reasonably argued that in the handling of these matters and in the writing of the damning letter he was acting as a priest to Goodall. It seems to me that he was at all times acting in his role as an administrator. If I am correct, I wonder if it would be possible to get charges laid?
Having seen an interview with some Irish priest in Sydney for the event, I would dearly like to be doing the interviewing! ‘These issues’ are not unfortunate, or sad, but criminal! The interviewers pussyfoot around allowing church spokes people to sanitise the language as if what is being discussed is the spilling of a bowl of ice-cream at a kid’s party.
Finally may I wish both you and my friend Dr Reynolds — from whom I have heard only once since she disappeared into the uncivilised wilds to live in bark huts and dine on grubs — all the best on your respective birthdays.
Finally finally: I appreciate the inclusion of your phone number. It is unlikely that I will need it, not unless I can think up something sufficiently annoying to justify the bother of fighting these nonsensical laws, that is. Should you find anything worth pursuing in your research, put me down for $100 toward any expenses you may incur.
They're annoying me already
I've run into several groups of pilgrims in the past few days – a bunch of nuns from the Phillipines and just this morning at 8am, a group of about 70 young Americans hopping off a bus in George Street to stay at a backpackers' hostel.
They're so cheerful and happy. I find it most annoying.
Peripitating Pilgrims
Well, the point is, Michael de Angelos, what you have to do to attract the operation of the Regulation is to persuade an authorised person (and it appears at this stage that that is only a Police Officer) that the behaviour is annoying or inconvenient to participants (plural) in a World Youth Day event within 500 m of a prescribed zone and that there is no reasonable excuse for them doing so in the mind of the authorised person.
Not all that easy to do. Getting to "Go" is hard enough but you have to be there before you collect the $5,500.
I should add, there are other and more sinister elements of the offences under the Regulation to which we have not yet adverted but that can await the Full Court's decision on Tuesday unless I can get the thing into the High Court before then.
Frankly, I find Roman Catholicism or any expression of it inherently annoying and inconvenient but it is protected by s 116 of the Constitution and I have more respect for the latter than the former.
I'd just love to go back to a bit of good old-fashioned sectarianism. (See the Yorick Despatches).
Secularism does not favour one religion over another
Paul Kelly is attacking those that believe that the taxpayer money spent on WYD is a waste and "aggressive new secularism", that is, those who reject any religious leader of whatever persuasion coming to Australia to change our way of life. He says we would be intolerant if we didn't support WYD.
I wonder just how tolerant he would be if $139 million of public money was spent on bringing a couple of hundred thousand Muslims to a convention in Sydney.
Would we accept and pay for Islamic leaders to come to Australia?
Maybe this chaps mates:
Secularism means we accept all religions but favour none. If we pay for Catholics then we should pay for Muslims. When we do otherwise we display our intolerance.
Government and Religion should be separated and no government finances should go to any religion.
People of all religions pay taxes, even atheists pay tax. Many would argue it is wrong to give to an alternative religion.
I guess I am an "aggressive secularist" Am I threatening Australia's social unity and religious tolerance by asking for equal treatment of all religions?