They say journalists provide the first draft of history. With the U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan, that draft led to an almost universal consensus, at least among Americans, that the attack was a justifiable act of self-defense. The Afghanistan action is commonly viewed as a "clean" conflict as well – a war prosecuted with minimal loss of life, and one that didn't bring the kind of international opprobrium onto the United States that the invasion of Iraq would lead to a year later.
Those views are also held by many Americans who are critical of the excesses of the Bush administration's "War on Terror." But there's a disconnect there. Everything that followed – secret detentions, torture, the invasion of Iraq, the assault on domestic dissent – flowed inevitably from the failure to challenge Bush's claim that an act of terror required a military response. The United States has a rich history of abandoning its purported liberal values during times of war, and it was our acceptance of Bush's war narrative that led to the abuses that have shattered America's moral standing before the world.
Thus does Joshua Holland begin an article in which he presents an interview with Andy Worthingnton, author of The Guantanamo Files which
... offers a much-needed corrective to the draft of the Afghanistan conflict that most Americans saw on their nightly newscasts. Worthington is the first to detail the histories of all 774 prisoners who have passed through the Bush administration's "legal black hole" at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. But his history starts in Afghanistan, and makes it abundantly clear that the road to Guantánamo – not to mention Abu Ghraib – began in places like Kandahar.
From there the process is one of connecting the dots and tracing the path that led to the abandoning of principles once held to be fundamental to the US system of justice. The process has been cloaked in lies and spin and the first question and answer addresses a fundamental misrepresentation:
Joshua Holland: I think most Americans believe that we went into Afghanistan to rout anti-American or anti-Western "jihadi," but your book captures the fact that the U.S. entered on one side of a long-standing civil war that had nothing to do with any sort of "clash of civilizations" between East and West. Can you give us some sense of what that conflict was about?
Andy Worthington: Sure, it's a very good question, actually. Briefly, the roots of the conflict lie in the Afghan resistance to the Soviet invasion in the 1980s, when the United States, via Pakistani intermediaries, and the Saudis vied to fund the mujahideen – Afghan warlords and their soldiers, backed up by a rather smaller number of Arab recruits.
At the end of the 1980s, when the Soviet Union withdrew, the country was plunged into a civil war, as the various warlords, pumped up with billions of dollars of U.S. and Saudi aid, fought each other to gain control of the country. Tens of thousands of civilians died, and crime and human rights abuses were rife.
Largely in response to this lawlessness, the Taliban – initially a group of ultraorthodox religious students from the south of the country – rose up to cleanse the country by creating a pure Islamic state. Their project, too, was soon derailed by brutality and by a religious fundamentalism that shocked the West, but it was the struggle between the Taliban and the warlords of the Northern Alliance that attracted thousands of foreign foot soldiers to Afghanistan in the 1990s, summoned by fatwas issued by radical sheikhs in their homelands, which required them to help the Taliban in their struggle against the Northern Alliance.
Osama Bin Laden, who had been living in Saudi Arabia and Sudan in the post- Soviet period, returned to Afghanistan in 1996 and became involved in funding military training camps and building up his plans for a global, anti-American jihad, but – although there was some overlap between Al Qaeda and parts of the Taliban leadership – the vast majority of the recruits, as I've indicated, were involved not in a grand "clash of civilizations" but in a provincial inter-Muslim civil war.
And from that we get to Guantanamo, and Iraq.
For more on the Guantanamo trial processes there is this further article by Worthtington.
It has been a long and twisted and tortuous path indeed.
United?
Michael, I don't think united is a word I would apply to the various groups in Iraq. Most of the killing there has been as a result of those competing interests, that as you say run deep in the whole region, and have done so for centuries. And they will continue to do so, if and when the US pulls out. Groups might unite temporarily for expediency, but that is all, and we don't even see much of that.
It takes a brutal leader with control over the army to hold the various groups together. Hence Saddam Hussein, Tito in the Balkans, the Taliban and others of that ilk. Remove them and the outcome is predictable. Old hatreds and rivalries surface and mayhem results. Seems if we want some sort of stability in that part of the world, then we have to tolerate watching a whole nation of people being oppressed. In other words, work with the dictators to protect our economic interests, and turn a blind eye.
But it becomes a different matter when the sort of stuff they engage in for centuries against one another is exported. Or in the case of the Balkans, where the genocide could no longer be ignored, because it was right on the West's doorstep. But of course it is poor fellows, the Africans. They seem to be expendable.
Richard, 9/11 changed the world forever. I don't think any country can expect to allow its territory to be a safe haven for terrorists as they carry out major attacks on another country, and then expect that their borders will be safe and that other country will do nothing. But I don't think you and I are too far apart. I abhor cruelty, on the part of anyone against any living creature.
BTW Are you coming over for the Canberra folk festival by any chance? If so, let us know.
Bob Wall, sorry but I have no obligation to explain to you, or engage with you on anything. So I choose not to.
The quote had no direct
The quote had no direct relevance to Iraq Jenny, that was just my throw away line. Truth be told, it bore no immediate relevance either. For those unaware it was taken from A Memoir of Afghanistan and India by Josiah Harlan, 1842 and republished in 2001.
It is instructive.
It comes down to how you decide what united is. None of these "tribes" are united - against most anything. They will, though, see a common "target". This is what "unites" the Iraqi "resistance": the target(s) not the "cause". This is no "socialist revolution" nor anything else we might conveniently buttonhole, this is "piss off the invader" writ large over the last five years in Iraq; thousands of years in Afghanistan.
Hello Bob! Have you read, Into The Land of Bones by Frank L Holt? If so what have you adduced from it?
If not, why not?
Father Park
Relativity
Jenny, thank you, and no I didn't think for a second that you would condone torture- just wanted to make sure that nobody else could. You and the good Father Park lay out the realities of the situation, While I can empathise with the emotions that would have precipitated the Afghanistan invasion, I still can't condone it. When Australia said it might strike at terrorists in Asia I couldn't condone that either. We've all had a good go at the ethics of state sovereignty in this forum, and those who disagree will continue to do so. I'm beginning to think, though, that the rights of statehood have been greatly weakened by the gung-ho approach of the WOT, and wonder what happens to the concept of localities being allowed unconditional autonomous rule in the future. I'm talking out my bum here, but what kind of message do we send to the likes of jihadists when we vindicate the restructuring in our own image of every fiefdom we don't like? It's a geese and sauce thing, to borrow your style of metaphor, and I'm beginning to think it's what's behind the concept of "losing face" in withdrawing from Iraq.
We'd better figure it out before the British Revolution, not to mention the first "dirty bomb" attack on a Western city, if it's not part of the same event. It looks to me that the Brits are perceiving Australia as a possible training ground for a UK Jihad. If such a UK event happened, would we allow NATO in to tidy things up? Bombing runs from Guam on Outback stations that might be cell training camps? I know we'd want to do everything in our power to assist in such a search, but what if we didn't?
I'd better shut the stable door in my mind and get some sleep, while I'm still able to.
What should have been done after 9/11?
As is my custom, today I opened IE a number of times, and chased via Google the Holland interview with Worthington at (Bob Wall's link did not work for me) and on a separate page, went to Simon Cottee's review of The Fall-Out: How a Guilty Liberal Lost His Innocence by Andrew Anthony, which is posted in the current Democratiya.
Both articles deal with abandonment of liberal principles: Holland and Worthington criticising the US Government over Afghanistan, Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (and it is worth reading) and Cottee and Anthony ripping into the left-liberals in the following terms:
"To speak very generally, there are two kinds of left apostate: there are those who break with the left in order to move elsewhere (usually to the right, though not always) and there are those who repudiate certain beliefs or modes of thinking within the left in order to strengthen other competing traditions within the left, which they see as more authentic and valuable. Among the former, one can instance Norman Podhoretz, David Horowitz, Paul Johnson and, more recently, Christopher Hitchens. Among the latter, Rosa Luxemburg, Victor Serge, Arthur Koestler, C.L.R. James, and George Orwell are prominent. Since the terror attacks of September 11, 2001, the ranks of this latter group have swelled markedly. In America, Michael Walzer, Paul Berman and Mitchell Cohen, among others, spoke out against the left’s reluctance or refusal to properly confront the menace of global Islamism, while in Britain a similar charge was spearheaded by, most prominently, David Aaronovitch, Norman Geras and Nick Cohen. Then, in April 2006, The Euston Manifesto was launched [1]. Authored by Geras and Alan Johnson, the Manifesto declared a commitment to democratic, egalitarian, humane, and libertarian values; registered its opposition to all forms of terrorism, political tyranny, ideological dogma, racist sentiment and cultural bigotry; reaffirmed the principle of a responsibility to protect the innocent from grave human rights violations; and expressed a profound impatience with elements of the left that have abandoned, or shown contempt for, the best aspirations of the progressive and democratic tradition. The appearance of the Manifesto, and the mass of interest it generated, seems to have been a galvanizing moment. Later that year, the novelist Martin Amis joined the fray, and sought to challenge the assumption, widely shared among liberals and leftists of all stripes, that Islamic suicide mass-murder is a product of, or an ‘understandable’ resistance to, radical oppression. Drawing on the work of Berman, Amis (2006) argued that not all terrible deeds are rationally explicable, and urged western liberals to ‘move on’ – to ‘stop believing in the purity, and the sanity, of the underdog’, and to ‘start believing in a cult of death, and in an enemy that wants its war to last for ever’. Then, directly on the heels of Amis’s intervention, came Nick Cohen’s, What’s Left: How Liberals Lost Their Way. Cohen’s central thesis was that in recent years the liberal-left has disgraced itself by excusing, or making common cause with, movements of the far right – as long as they are anti-western. With the publication of The Fall-Out: How a Guilty Liberal Lost His Innocence, Andrew Anthony, the extraordinarily gifted British journalist, has recruited himself to this small, but increasingly visible, group of left apostates. It is to their great benefit that he has done so."
Which opens up the question: if we were to agree with Holland and Worthington that a military response to 9/11 was inappropriate, what then would have been appropriate?
A prior question?
How about opening up a prior question: What could have been done earlier than 9/11 to avoid triggering the course of events leading to what happened on that day?
Was Brzezinski's 'bear trap' a smart strategy? If so, was it executed intelligently?
Were the risks of doing something like, say, assisting those who formed al-Qaeda so as to use them as a tool (remember Reagan's "One man's terrorist...") properly assessed and managed?
Did US conduct in the first Gulf War contribute to or hinder the growth of terrorist networks?
Has it proved appropriate to cause and/or contribute to the continuing of so much suffering amongst some peoples, the stuff that fuels conflict, swells the ranks of the frustrated and angry, and greatly aids the terrorist organisations' recruiters?
come over to my place
Jenny and Ian, if you're having problems with your telcom you know you are welcome.
I don't have the inclination to follow the links and don't give a monkey's what other leftists think although while wedge politics is a plausible reason for the the stance of many of them is understandable, it is still inexcusable.
"What then would have been appropriate?"
At the time of 9/11 I was working for AMP in Parramatta and spoke to my boss about it. I was appalled but more than that I was in mortal fear of the USA response. A blind giant that would thrash around creating havoc and mayhem. How prophetic I was. An eye for an eye doesn't sit well with me, an atheist, but if you accept it then make sure it's the guilty eye you poke out. For all the havoc that the US has caused over the last few decades the perpetrators could have been anybody except for the fact the modus operandi was such that the kamikaze spirit is not to be found in many cultures. I wouldn't mind betting no few Serbs amongst others, rejoiced in the atrocity.
What would have been appropiate was a reasoned response. Cause and effect. Address the cause.
Thanks Scott
Thanks Scott, but we have quit for awhile. The burrs (and telecom) beat us and we were fed up trying to beat them. Wanted to get you over but were too tired, and tied. Will be back soon, and will give you a call then.
Jenny, maybe a big question, but..
How much of the American response to the Twin Towers do you consider appropriate, and what, if anything, do you not?
At first glance your post felt a bit like you think it was their fault that we've treated so many people so badly.
Appropriate response, that's all Richard
Richard: I don't think it is OK to treat anyone badly. All I am saying is that when the Taliban chose to harbour Bin Laden they invited the response they got. I consider that response (ie invasion) appropriate, and I am not Robinson Crusoe there.
The Taliban would have been well aware of Bin Laden's role in the African bombings yet they chose to allow him into the country, there to set up and operate training camps for the sole purpose of exporting terrorism. What other purpose did those camps have but more of the African style terrorist attacks? Thousands of innocent men, women and children have died in such acts, either perpetrated by Bin Laden's recruits, or inspired by him.
The Taliban had plenty of time to hand him over when he set up camp there after the African bombings. Instead they deliberately chose to harbour him. After 9/11 it was all a bit too late.
Horse and stable stuff.
If it's OK for Jack ...
Scott Horton on 24.
What next, Tom and Jerry?
Some things should not be done:
What possible basis could anyone have for challenging the honesty of the Crawford Caligula?
Chris Floyd with vets' stories.
Just in case you don't watch 24.
James Carroll - Torture Shocks.
Has McCain's vote got anything to do with his political ambitions?
Back to Scott Horton's article and the words quoted therein of Albert Camus:
The worst ...
....of the worst. Were they? In the Holland article there is a link
to an analysis of those who were held at Guantanamo Bay. It is worth highlighting the summary:
Perhaps it was enough merely to be a Muslim. Now, as to what Muslim's think ...
One finding:
Now for a victim's story.
Bush made the following comment in his SOTU address:
Some people mean what they say. Others indulge in gross hypocrisy - in addition to crimes against humanity and crimes against peace.
Nothing changes
Alexander III spent two and a half years backtracking throughout this region. He was engaged in a serious and bloody "insurgency" against his invasion led by Bessus, Spitamenes and Ariamazes (among others). He dealt with this by military means and, when this singularly failed, with gratuitous slaughter and acts of terror.
It was when these too failed that he realised what he faced was not a "national Persian resistance" but peoples fighting to defend their way of living. They had little time for these Macedonian invaders and even less for a future ensconced as the servile population of the conqueror's "Alexandrias" (garison towns). It was then that Alexander decided he should marry into the local elites and settle matters via this dynastic marriage.
Seems the area, unfortunately, hasn't changed much. The real question though is just who will marry whom today?
Father Park
A law unto himself.
A New York Times editorial.
As a boy it was frogs; now he is president ...
Going public.
And thanks to you, Craig, for the links. So Jack ...off is in Gibney's sights? Good. Have some links of my own related to bad behaviour.
Philip Zimbardo.
On allegations of UK involvement.
So, somebody doesn't want him to speak out. There is a video and a copy of a statement made before the injunction. From the statement:
And in the US:
The wheels are in motion.
Taxi to the Dark Side
Thanks Bob. The Oscar winning documentary Taxi to the Dark Side also tells some of the story of that long and twisted and tortuous path. Good news is that Alex Gibney has a new target in his sights: