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Morality without a Godby David Roffey
The Preface to Richard Dawkins' new book, The God Delusion, says: "If this book works as I intend, religious readers who open it will be atheists when they put it down." On the face of it, a deeply unlikely ambition, and not one that is borne out by the quality of the writing. Along the way, however, it does raise some important questions about the nature of morality, and the relationship of morality to religion. Let's start with Dawkins' tome … The God DelusionSince time immemorial, people have been ascribing what they don't understand to gods and magical beings. This is still the essential argument of many deists, most notably the Intelligent Design / Creationists: "it's too complicated to be explained, therefore a God must have done it". Richard Dawkins, it seems, has had enough of writing popular science texts that attack this idea by explaining the complicated, and has moved on to attack the basic premise. Dawkins is careful to define the God he is attacking: "a superhuman, supernatural intelligence who deliberately designed and created the universe and everything in it, including us." (p.31) and: "in addition to his main work of creating the universe in the first place, is still around to oversee and influence the subsequent fate of his initial creation." (p.18). Examples: Yahweh, Christ, Allah, but not Buddha or Confucious. So, we are not here discussing an Einsteinian or Spinozan amorphous belief in (eg) a god or force who designed the universe but has taken no actions in it for several billion years once it was set up or sneezed out of the Great Green Arkleseizure * (busy with some other project?). "To adapt Alice's comment on her sister's book before she fell into Wonderland, what is the use of a God who does no miracles and answers no prayers. Remember Ambrose Bierce's witty definition of the verb 'to pray': 'to ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner, confessedly unworthy'." (p.60) Failure to understand this distinction as it is intended renders, for example, the New Scientist review of the book meaningless, as well as many other criticisms of it from those who say they do not recognise the God they believe in as the one under attack – simultaneously not recognising that the God they believe in is not the same one that their church, temple or mosque believes in, either. Second definition: Delusion: "a persistent false belief held in the face of strong contradictory evidence" (MS Word dictionary). Dawkins notes with interest that the illustrative quotation for "delusion" in the Penguin English Dictionary is "Darwinism is the story of humanity's liberation from the delusion that its destiny is controlled by a power higher than itself" (Phillip E Johnson). Now, clearly any follower of any religion believes that theirs is the only true and valid view. However, there is a wide range of views about what to do about the infidels who don't believe (or, worse, believe in something else). I have a vivid memory of a service led by the saintly Rev Dr Ann Wansbrough which began with a welcome that included the words: "My God loves you whether you believe in him or not." Like everyone else, I also have many vivid memories of news of incidents perpetrated by those who think in more violent terms on how you treat unbelievers. Dawkins' motivation for attacking religion, rather than just ignoring it, is essentially because of the growing prevalence of the fundamentalist and intolerant view amongst followers of many religions (but most particularly in the three Abrahamic faiths). Anyone who has seen Andrew Denton's low-key masterpiece God on my side has seen some good examples. (NB, keep watching to the end of the credits for the best question of the whole film.) Dawkins has the traditional fun with the myriad contradictions and inconsistencies of the Bible story, and the unlikelihood that anyone could live their life following God's word as set out in it without being banged up for life:
Knockabout stuff, but not really up to the task of persuading the deluded that Dawkins has set himself. A confirmed deist who took on the penance of reading the whole thing will have no difficulty brushing off the rational (after all, faith in the irrational is how they got where they are to start with). They might give up on page 253, just after St Paul is described by Dawkins (with every justification, admittedly) as "barking mad, as well as viciously unpleasant". Which would be a shame, because they'd miss some of the more important questions on the next few pages, as Dawkins raises questions of just what exactly is the morality we can get from religious teachings, and where they can lead us. A few recent debates elsewhere on Webdiary might be illuminated by the discussion of Israeli schoolchildren's reactions to and learnings from the story of Joshua and the battle of Jericho (pp.255-7) [NB – worth reading the whole paper by John Hartung from which Dawkins' discussion is drawn.] Choosing which of God's Rules to follow The key point raised is this: clearly, good Christians don't get all of their moral teaching from the Bible, or, more accurately, don't get their moral teaching from all of the Bible – they pick and choose amongst God's word for the principles they feel comfortable with, and discard the ones they don't. Faced with the injunction to " utterly destroy all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword" (and keep the gold for the Treasury), most of us have second thoughts, and those that don't tend to end up on trial, as do those Muslims who follow up on the equally lurid odd passages of the Koran. We all interpret and choose amongst the moralities set out around us, and the evidence is that the choices that atheists and religious people make when faced with moral dilemmas are very similar (pp.222-6). So, Dostoevsky's Ivan Karamazov was almost certainly wrong, and without god, not everything is permitted, and not only because "conscience is that inner voice that warns us that someone may be looking" (HL Mencken). As one of Dawkins' chapter titles asks: why are we good? He provides a good summary of the evolutionary reasons why individuals might be altruistic, generous or 'moral' towards each other: kinship, reciprocation, reputation-building, and advertising ourselves as good breeding mates. Once we started banging the rocks together with a purpose, thoughtful humans have selected towards these characteristics (though not completely – see Capitalism's Moral Bastards). People who care are just more likely to successfully pass on their genes. We don't need that 'someone who may be looking' to be some omniscient and personified surveillance system with a penchant for smiting or torturing for eternity those who transgress. On the other side, as we've already aired here, those who do want to do almightily awful things to their fellow human beings (and the rest of the denizens of the planet), can find plenty of justification in the weirder outreaches of their holy books. As Dawkins sees it (and I agree), the big problem with religion is not so much in the detail of the Jericho's and the '72 virgins', but in the absolutism of the handing down of knowledge, and the aversion to discovery (not to mention the whole Armageddon movement and its view of all the fire, flood and disaster as being preliminaries to final days – and thus not only unavoidable / unpreventable, but to be welcomed). The question is, now that we're applying intelligence as well as instinct and evolution to our morality, just how do we choose the rules we follow from among those set out by our peers, our parents, or our favourite prophet? ============================================= Morality without a GodAs it happens, while I was reading The God Delusion, I was also reading another book covering this ground from a very different direction: Values, Ethics and Society: Exton Land [an alter ego of writer LE Modesitt Jr (LE = Leland Exton)] **
Setting out some principles On the face of it, the definition of ethical looks pretty straightforward. It is relatively easy to set out a "new ten commandments" that fit most people's ideas of ethics and morality – Dawkins references some of these – and they will have a substantial overlap with the principles in the Sermon on the Mount – which is one of only three incidents in the story of Jesus that are agreed upon by all the Gospel writers (the others being the baptism and the passion week story). The problem is that atheists are no more likely to actually act on those principles in their day-to-day life than Christians are. If you think I'm being harsh, try looking for the frequency of application of a few examples, say (not at all at random): "Agree with thine adversary quickly" or "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you" or "Judge not, that ye be not judged". The Golden Rule ("do as you would be done by") would tend to come first, followed by "(strive to) do no harm". Of the original Ten (though actually there is not agreement amongst the sects on what the original Ten are), we can fairly easily accept the injunctions against murder, theft and perjury, while wondering how it came that coveting your neighbours' stuff got to be more worth mentioning than, say, rape or child abuse, and not getting too distracted by the thought that at least some sects have used "honour thy father and mother" as justification for forms of the latter.
Dawkins, with a modern sensibility, argues for "do not discriminate or oppress on the basis of race, sex or (as far as possible) species", "do not indoctrinate your children" and "view the future on timescale longer than your own". (pp.263-5) However, this only takes us so far along the route. The principles may be clear, but how do we actually operationalise them in our individual lives and police them in society's rules – and how much do we respect other society's/people's different rules.
Interpreting the rules It isn't only the definition of 'kind' that has been a problem. The other big problem in "be kind to one another" has traditionally been the circumscription of 'one another' to a severely reduced subset of humanity. Dawkins points out that the original Ten Commandments' "thou shalt not kill" only applied to other Jews – killing non-Jews didn't count (and in the case of Jericho and numerous other examples was at God's command). For most of history, 'one another' also didn't include any females, or at least not to the same extent – recall that Lot proved his status as the only man worth saving in Sodom by offering his daughters up for gang rape in place of the angels he was sheltering. The modern response to these dilemmas sometimes seems to be ever more detailed definition of exactly what is or isn't forbidden / punishable / suable for, with piles of precedent and litigation to hone the edges of liability and guilt. Almost makes you want to hark back to the false certainties of doing what the AllFather tells you…
Focusing on our values It really is becoming very important that we try to focus on the values of the codes (and our society) themselves. We have let our society drift for the last fifty years or so along a path where the values of the individual and the market have been allowed progressively to dominate: where the central dogma is that there is no dogma – there is always another way of looking at things - that all voices deserve a hearing, that all points of view have something of value to offer.
The reaction to blatant wrongdoing that contravenes our basic values can be reduced to "well, that's the only way you can do business over there". If the only values we all submit to are the values of the market, then 'a fair go' doesn't get a market value, nor do the rest of the 'Australian Values' the Commonwealth is about to spend a small fortune on in our schools. (Hands up who can name them? - to save you, they are: Fair Go; Care and Compassion; Understanding, Tolerance and Inclusion; Integrity; Doing Your Best; Freedom; Respect; Responsibility - and doesn't our Federal Government stand up for all of these every day as an example to our kids.) Letting market value determine the rules
How far are we down the road to a society where market power overrules democracy always and everywhere? I'm fascinated by how the Right are divided over this question: while some will protest that all is best in this best of all possible worlds, and our version of democracy is so strong and pure that it must be exported to the rest of the world (at gunpoint, if necessary), there is another faction that may have gotten quieter about the 'greed is good' philosophy since Wall Street, but basically believes it still. The latter view is often mixed up with some simplistic interpretation of Adam Smith's 'invisible hand', and views such as this:
This earlier 'invisible hand', which predates the more famous one in the later Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations (1776), exposes the habitual misapplication of the term, because The Theory of Moral Sentiments is imbued throughout by the unstated assumption that the aforementioned rich operate in a society with a shared set of values ('moral sentiments') based on pervasive agreements on ethics and morality that our society has largely left behind (or reserved for a small and compartmentalised segment of life). A 'crisis of faith'? There is some (mostly anecdotal) evidence that the general run of our society is becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the direction we are taking. Whether this unease or malaise is going to translate into action is far from clear.
The need for a new consensus We are coming to a period where the challenges to society are going to require actions that need a radical change to the fundamental ethics we hold so deeply that we haven't hardly questioned them at all. Only a short while ago, our Prime Minister got away almost unquestioned with the theory that we couldn't possibly consider doing anything about the future of the planet if it was going to potentially cost Australian jobs: even now the rhetoric is still (qua the Stern review) that saving the planet is only on the agenda because it might not cost any jobs after all. We need a new consensus on morality and ethics. Coming full circle to where we started, I don't think we can look to religion to get us there, because although there are many wonderful and moral people in all major religions, large factions of the religious hold to various versions of either "let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth", or "these are the latter days, fire and flood, and there is nothing we can do to stop it" – this last being a direct quote from conversation with a famous Australian of evangelical bent. Where are we going to get our consensus? Everywhere, I guess. David Curry's boy gets his worldview at least in part from The Lion King. Probably a better place to start than The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, which in the film version at least was so heavily into the Church Militant and smiting that I ended up cheering for the Witch. I, in my turn, have taken much of my text from the sidebars of a novel. However we get there, the process must be at least as moral and ethical as the result.
============================================= Notes* "The Jatravartid People of Viltvodle Six firmly believe that the entire universe was sneezed out of the nose of a being called The Great Green Arkleseizure. They live in perpetual fear of the time they call The Coming Of The Great White Handkerchief." The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy: Dawkins' book is dedicated to Douglas Adams. ** 'Exton Land's writings are scattered through the section and chapter headings of Modesitt's books: all of the quotes above come from The Ethos Effect. As David Brin noted in the speech cited in the text, science fiction is one of the places where human creativity can explore the big questions without getting bogged down in the specifics of history and particular hard cases. [ category: ]
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Good guts will do me
Proving or disproving the existence of god is a moot point. It would appear those who have contributed to this thread agree that the existence of god cannot be proved. Belief in god is a matter of faith. This argument of course was dealt with a long time ago when in 1781 Immanuel Kant’s Kritik der reinen Vernunft (Critique of Pure Reason) was published. The proof that god exists is “beyond the bounds of pure reason”; nuff said.
God is a matter of faith, faith that exists only in the human mind, the individual human mind.
Has anyone ventured a definition of their god?
Would anyone like to try?
Personally I feel those who believe in their relationship with (their) god are only having a relationship with themselves, maybe their perfect self. A bit like a romantic dreaming of the perfect partner, their soul mate, who in reality is just an extension of themselves. But that’s OK for I have no problem with people believing what they wish, so long as they do not expect me to believe likewise, and so long as their faith does not get them involved in deeds that make a mockery of that faith.
Mike Lyvers in earlier posts brought up Hitler and his claims that he was acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator to justify his atrocities; while the Church and most of its followers stood by and betrayed everything Christianity stood for, thus enabling a tyrant to rape and pillage at will. It would be easy to draw comparisons with the President of the United States but let’s not fall into the trap of believing that such people were/are Christian; at best they were/are Christians of convenience, not the real McCoy, and at worst psychopaths.
I suppose if one is a Christian then it would be most unwise to allow oneself to be a vehicle through which psychopaths can manipulate and control your mind and to have you assist in their atrocities. Beware of false prophets.
Maybe Voltaire was correct when he said “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”.
Atheists will never be able to convince the faithful they are wrong or misguided for like Jenny Hume it will only make their faith stronger. This is a perfectly normal human reaction and anybody who is ridiculed for their faith (or irrational beliefs of any kind) will find their defence mechanisms kick in and defiance reigns regardless of rational thought or reason.
I have found over the years religion has somewhat fascinated me; the mythology is entertaining and the good guts worth considering from a behavioural point of view. Love thy neighbour, be honest and assist the homeless; these themes permeate all religions although their origins were most likely topics of philosophy and consequently adapted by theologians. At least religion helped convey these necessary attributes of community in a manner that could be easily understood by the average Joe Blow.
It is sad that that the faithful can be fooled by psychopaths, in the same way as followers of all religions and belief systems leave themselves vulnerable to the charismatic and unscrupulous. So be careful my fellow travellers for in these interesting times it is best to keep a fair balance between faith and reality, and beware of those who claim to have a special relationship with your god, for their god is most probably the god of power, greed and perversion.
Besides if you genuinely have faith in your god is it necessary to follow the leader?
Absurdities
Roger: Atheists will never be able to convince the faithful they are wrong or misguided for like Jenny Hume it will only make their faith stronger. This is a perfectly normal human reaction and anybody who is ridiculed for their faith (or irrational beliefs of any kind) will find their defence mechanisms kick in and defiance reigns regardless of rational thought or reason.
Mr Dawkins would be interested in that advice. But I don't totally agree with it. I know many once very good Christians who are now atheists, and many once good atheists who are now Christians. Someone clearly influenced them somehow. There is drift both ways. As for me, I have never once felt defensive over my beliefs but I agree if you ridicule people's beliefs, you do risk that. In the face of the so called rational arguments against them I just see no good reason yet to change them. I found the debate stimulated me to get a bit better acquainted with my religion and I re-connected with it. I find that good but I can still live with an atheist, who is the true soul mate and perfect partner. No need here to dream about one.
I agree needy people can be very vulnerable to manipulation, both by religious fanatics and by non religious fanatics. Given there are so many needy people in the world things do not look too good.
As for the Voltaire quote. I guess since atheists have been able to lead people to commit atrocities then it would follow that Voltaire would consider atheism an absurdity too.
But as I recall Voltaire and another Hume once had a major falling out. But I think the old philosopher was slightly mad, like most of the Humes according to my great grandmother. Maybe she was right.
There is some good advice in your comment Roger, my delusions notwithstanding.
Have a spit Mike
Mike, while finally deciding there is no deity and strongly convinced of such I must say I find your comments below to be rather over the top, to be mild. The comments seem to bear little relation to anything Jenny has written and is very insulting, both intellectually and personally.
What I see from your comments is the same inflexibility that those you heavily criticise have used for centuries, or milleniums in some cases.
Extremely disapponited to hear this from you and perhaps this approach is why the two groups, believers and non believers shall never come together. A bit of tolerance perhaps?
Do you have any disagreement with the supposed teachings of Jesus at all? I cannot see any other way to live really. The problem is that religions have perverted the original message(s) for political and power reasons, no more.
Jenny, one email address you can use is cobbncoweb@hotmail.com. I'll give you my real info if you do contact me through that. Checked daily etc. Would love a copy.
Enough 2 Party barracking.
Care to be specific, Ross?
Ross, your comment to me seems rather over the top, to be mild. Care to be specific as to where I supposedly "insulted" Jenny personally and intellectually? I doubt she feels insulted by me.
This brings up a general point Dawkins makes in his book: why can't we discuss religion just as we discuss any other ideas? Why do people get so ridiculously defensive? My hypothesis is that such defensiveness arises in some because deep down they don't believe in their religion themselves, but are attached to their beliefs for emotional reasons stemming from childhood conditioning and/or residual dependence feelings, and thus feel threatened when anyone points out the absurdities, contradictions and hypocrisies inherent in their belief system. To take an extreme example, "love thy neighbor" rather contradicts "kill the infidels" I would think. Unless of course your neighbors must necessarily all share your beliefs - then you must love them while together killing the infidels I suppose.
As evidence of the lack of actual (as opposed to professed) belief in many theists, Dawkins cites the fact that religious types rarely express happiness over the news that a loved one is dying. If they really believed in a glorious afterlife they would be happy for the dying person because of the fantastic place they are going, would probably say with some excitement "see you when I get there!" and perhaps ask them to give various messages to the other dead relatives they will meet there. But this sort of reaction is very rare even among the most devout. The actual reaction is very much unlike the situation where the relative is about to head off for an extended holiday on a "heavenly" tropical island. But if they really believed in a heavenly afterlife, the reaction should be similar.
Under The Great Lord Dawkins
Allied Atheist Allegiance versus United Atheist Alliance!
So. It begins. (YouTube)
Kill The Wise One!
The Gospel According To Parker And Stone.
I wonder
I wonder how if the arguments here, and in the book, would have differed if Dawkins had written "The Devil Delusion."
Hi again Jenny
Jenny, great extract from your Mum's letter. Beautiful country there, would have been tough in the '20s. Although of course, the NT!
Put me down for a copy, published or not OK.
You made a small typo which suggests a title to me. You wrote dairies instead of diaries. Which brings me to a title suggestion or 2:
Diaries and dairies.
Diaries, deities and Australia.
Just a thought.
I too have used forums to write. As yet it has transferred very little to my own writing but there's always tomorrow....
Best to both. Enough 2 Party barracking.
Thank you Jenny
Thanks Jenny,
Yes it's been a battle as you know. I've always enjoyed posting with you as you are one of the few who do discuss your beliefs. Geoff too is always interesting and challenging and I enjoy his posts mightily as written below.
Do hope my posts are not offensive to you, not meant to be. And yes it would be all day. We do have lives after all.
2007 is the year of the real Ross. Spent 11 days in hospital after resisting mightily for 6 years. Thought more deserving people needed the help before I. Will have to amend my personal copy of the D guide posted on WD. Still valid for the struggle but hospital has opened my eyes.
Actually I will update my first item to include current experiences rather than filling pages on this thread as there are many lurking here and elswhere with big time D and don't know it and therefore seek no help. At that stage we think it's normal so our ego says "There's nothing wrong with me mate".
Briefly I am, at least for now, the real Ross. The boy I was who carried that load for 45 years. Battle is "won" right now but who knows about tomorrow?
May I enquire about your book, without wasting your days? I too attempt writing but posting is so much quicker and easier so I am a champion procrastinator, until now anyway. Wouldn't be bold enough to call it writer's block but that's my ambition, workwise at least. Not block, write.
Enough 2 Party barracking.
Ross - a quick reply and trouble in the church
Ross, Ian alerted me to your reply so a quick second post. I've made good headway this morning with my writing. Another gift from WD. A year ago I found it hard to write but WD has given me a lot of practice and it now seems to flow more easily. I had earlier compiled and edited two books of my late father's work but being responsible for an entire book oneself is another matter.
The book? I promised my late mother fifteen years ago, (see how the years fly) that I would one day write her family history. They were Scottish and Danish immigrants who pioneered what I call the last frontier, the coastal valleys of northern NSW which were settled quite late due to the difficulty of access across so many large rivers and into rainforest ranges. I am working from original dairies and letters which is fascinating. What hard lives they had. I felt like calling the book Born to Toil. My mother wanted it called Down Vanished Years. I am now thinking more along the lines of Settlers on the Last Frontier. Dunno really.
Anyway. Here is a small extract from a letter by my mother to her sister dated 15/9/1924 which I think is pertinent to a thread about God and his followers. All was not well in one Church it seems.
The Catholic Bazaar has all fallen through. Mrs Rowell and Mr Finan had an awful row in the middle of Mass one Sunday. The priest got a surprise. He walked out of the Church and went home. Then Mr Finan swore at Mrs Rowell one day and she took him to court and won the case. I am told she gave him rather a rough time of it in the court house. All the Catholics are now rowing, or most them anyway.
I'll bet our resident barrister would have had fun with that case.
Am really pleased you have made such progress. A stay in hopsital can be a good circuit breaker so never be afraid to go back if you feel the need. It is much harder I have found to get men to seek help than women. There are of course exceptions. Cheers and no you do not offend me. I would say so if you did.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali
Using your brain
The story that a part of the brain might be responsible for "do unto others" has been in the news lately:
[extract from Health News-Stat]
A physical part of the anatomy dedicated to helping others will make for interesting philosophising. For starters there's the fact that an innate compulsion to do our best for our fellows might have been hijacked by powermongers for the last couple of thousand years, give or take a few centurions..
Jenny
Jenny,
Sorry to keep questioning your posts but...
You point our that empirical proof of the absence of God cannot be provided. Exactly so, that's how science works. Only one positive result should be required to establish a fact. The reverse too applies though. Where is the empirical proof of God's existence?
IMHO it is in our own minds, in what we need to believe for peace.
I also noted your statement that the discussion has strengthened your beliefs. I can only suggest that comes from being a little afraid to question what you do believe as doing so is very difficult and outside all our comfort zones. But if we don't do that Jenny we may never find the truth. Lies I don't accept, not from anywhere. Beliefs, of course I do, it is all our right to believe what we want.
As do Howard voters.
No Ian you didn't say that, the link does as you so ably clarify. And no you don't need to believe what any link quotes. I don't nor should any of us. It is the internet after all.
Geoff, will email. Hospital was a blessing mate.
Margo, further re cool.
Moody Blues
"There you go man
Keep as cool as you can
Face piles of trials with smiles
It riles them to believe
That you perceve the web they weave
And keep on thinking … free!"
Every good boy deserves a favour. As Molly says, listen please to that album.
Enough 2 Party barracking.
Ross - not afraid to question
Ross, just a quick reply as a month ago I decided not to post till my book was finished and the days slip away so I must be more disciplined. It is quite OK with me if people question what I write and one must expect that on subjects like this. But few do. They've probably decided I am so deluded it is a lost cause.
No, I am the last person to be afraid to question what I believe and I do so all the time. WD got me doing that more and I just found the doubts I had began to evaporate. I did not expect that to be the case. It just was. And I became a much more religous person as a result this past year.
No, there is no empirical proof of God's existence either way. But many believers will argue that God has not just been just an onlooker in their lives, myself included. But we better not go there or the whole day will be gone. So that's my bloomin' lot for today.
I am sorry you have such a battle. I recall your piece on depression. I hope things look up for you in 2007.
Cheers Ross.
All in the mind
Yep, attributing the incomprehensible to a diety is not exactly new. Sometimes I lean towards the ancient Greek p.o.v. of manifestations of power treating mortals as they please.
I'm more inclined to think that belief in gods is a trigger for the human mind to access abilities that it doesn't believe it possesses. That's not to say that the energy utilised isn't provided by or part of a sentient diety. To me the faith that moves mountains is often well utilised by groups of people to bring about sometimes small but often significant occurrences, and is something that not only clergy but also media moguls and politicians have a sense of.
It's all in the mind, one way or another.
But seriously...
Religiosity in politics is hardly the sole province of the Right. We now have Opposition Leader Kevin Rudd explicitly bringing his own religious faith into his politics, to the point of writing an essay entltled Faith in Politics.
Al "Would Jesus Ratify Kyoto?" Gore is another noted God-botherer on the Left-ish side of politics.
So I think it's a fair and pertinent question: are we bothered by religiosity in politics, or just by religiosity among politicians we oppose. More specifically: does Kevin Rudd's religiosity bother you as much as Tony Abbott's?
Jimmy Carter is apparently still relevant to discussion here on Webdiary. Only recently I was upbraided by the Argument-from-Authority Subcommittee for having the temerity to critique Carter's comments on the Mideast (after a rather clumsy attempt to trip me up with a quote from a Carter interview). Carter, a former President! And me, a nobody. What right did I have to question him? Why, I never! Harumph, harumph.
I thought you'd get it
Maybe It's Just Democrats...
From "I've committed adultery in my heart" to "I did not have sexual relations with that woman..." in one generation. (And let's not get start on JFK!)
I think what Dubya, Blair, and John Howard need is a good sex scandal. Might loosen them up a bit.
The Hitchhikers Guide to God
For those interested ... Don't forget to pack your open mind !
The anthropic universe
It's called the anthropic universe: a world set up so that human beings could eventually emerge. So many physical constants, so many aspects of our solar system, so much seems to be finally tuned for our benefit. But was it? We hear from Professor Martin Rees, Paul Davies and Frank Tipler, as well as many others, about one of the ultimate questions. This program was originally broadcast 18th February 2006.
An extract:
"In theology we're all agreed that you have to get rid of an anthropromorphic God, one who is like a human person but outside the universe. You certainly have to get rid of that but you can still talk about a cosmic mind, or the intelligence of the universe, and in the Indian tradition that would be called Sat Chit Ananda, quite widely, Being, Consciousness and Bliss, a consciousness of intelligence and bliss. That's exactly, you know, what I think the sort of God that science would suggest. I think a combination of those two strands of thought is the future of religion in my view.
"The sort of religious view which is very compatible with modern science is a vast cosmic evolution of the finite towards the infinite: the growth of consciousness from the unconscious; the growth of intelligence from that which has no intelligence. So that indeed it seems to make sense if you're looking at it in the most broad terms, to see the universe as a finite reflection of the intelligence of ultimate mind, a reflection which becomes one with its source."
And if this hasn't satisfied you and your mind is still intact
Margo: Why don't they like pantheism? And what about neopaganism? I went to a Buddhist dharma gathering in November, 'led' by former monk Christopher Titmus. Very different experience for the likes of me. A bit inspiring, actually.
Like minds ?
Hi Margo, I have had an ongoing struggle with this GOD thing ever since I had to face my own Waterloo, ie alcoholism and assorted addictions ... I only know that my recovery would have been impossible without some sought of "belief" in god ! ... and without boring you with the details, I have no doubt that I would not be here at present without MY concept (in those days) of a higher power (pantheistic in some ways).
Like you seem to have, I embarked on a quest to refine my concept and to date (about 17 years) I must say that I haven't progressed too far, other than to suspect that it certainly isn't within any boundary that the main religions (eastern and western etc) may care to define and as far as spirituality goes, I really struggle to embrace a definition to progress in that direction ... albeit that I have had a few profound experiences that most people would call "spiritual".
I haven't read Paul Davies new book yet but I have heard him talking about it and sounds like worth reading. I must admit that at present that a "scientific" god seems, at least, logical to me, but that maybe just because of my "male" brain.
... My search continues ... may we meet as passing cosmic particles some day !... enjoy your quest ! ... mine has certainly been "enlightening" !
Margo: Simon, I've kicked the booze and assorted other addictions, and am now down to the really big one, the fags. I'm on the way to connecting mind and body, and I've just started exploring the "spirit". I've no doubt the journey will be lifelong, but it feels worthwhile so far.
Against the dreaded drop - a teen's view 1913
Simon and Margo: Researching for my book I came across my late aunt's diary and exercise book dated 1913, when she was in her late teens. She had joined the Temperance movement and had written a 42 page treatise for its journal The Templar, entitled The Case for No License. She lived on a small dairy farm up in the north coast valley of Taylors Arm, home of Slim's Pub With No Beer which still serves the locals.
Now long dead Judges were called upon to support her case: Sir Frederick Darley, Judge Murray and Mr Justice Cohen:
The majority of cases of crime brought before us are due to drink.
No coffin was left undisturbed as she scoured the world for other supporters: Sir Victor Horsley, Sir Frederick Treves, Cardinal Manning, Andrew Carnegie, Reverand E Whitehouse of Ashburton, Police Inspector Mitchell of Invercargill, Mr A. G Creagh, Crown Solicitor of Oamaru, comparing crime rates in No-license areas around the world with Licence areas.
But it was with fervour that she embraced the words of Sir Charles Lilley (God knows who he was): The redemption for mankind from the curse of drunkenness is in the hands of women.
So she ran with that: While the husbands enjoy themselves in the bar room, spending the week's wages, how many weary anxious women have waited in a dismal impoverished home with little ones crying round. Women suffer a great deal more than men through drink. Life is often a daily burden, and indeed the woman would welcome death joyously to free her from such anguish. Drink is the enemy of the home and every mother should do her utmost to keep it away from her door. Women are not half awake, they do not realise what deadly work this enemy is doing in their homes. Their kindliness and their readiness to help the distressed gives them great power over men. If the majority of women could only be taught how nearly all poverty and misery their sex suffers is due to drink, they would rouse the world to cast it out as the greatest danger in the path of life.
Now I often wondered why I've never touched a drop. With an aunt like that who would dare?
Am happy that you have both won the battle. Must have been hard.
Did that young girl win? No. She saw her husband off to the Great War just three years later, after only ten days of marriage. He got caught up in the worst of it,was wounded, and came back an acoholic. Reading his war diary I am not surprised.
Perhaps one should not delve too far into the past for the pain one finds.
Malcolm B Duncan: Good. Let the fish live happily ever after. Next time if you are game it is the Soof, collapsed as it no doubt will be. But as a good lawyer I am sure you will hide any incriminating look of disdain. As for me, I'm out for the count. No wonder no work got done today. Some addictions are hard to beat, but tomorrow I reform.
Margo: A family of activists, eh?
A God Who Believes In People?
Well, FK, I'd defend Dawkins' definition. It seems to me that believing in a God who doesn't do anything at all is just a sort of undeclared atheism. It's safe and doesn't mean anything, but it saves you having to say anything embarrassing on the census form.
-- David Roffey
Without wishing to show too much of my hand at this stage of the game, I'll call David on this round and raise him two eternal lives.
If you believed in a God who should jump to the rescue at the drop of a baby sparrow then doesn't that amount to a yearning for a gilt-edge thralldom? A return to the womb? To the Garden of Eden?
Life develops because of challenge and pain. Without it life would not have got past the amino acid stage. Humans would never have evolved. To rescue life and humanity from suffering is to rob it of freedom and growth.
Why would God have bothered in the first place?
Margo: How about a belief in universal consciousness? Tap in and you too can do 'God's' work.
The opposite effect
Geoff: This is not just to you. Just an interesting observation for myself really.
There has been much written on this thread about God, religion and atheism and earlier on other threads. I found Roger Fedyk's stuff the most thought provoking. But for me all this debate about religion has had the opposite effect to that which Dawkins would want.
Before getting involved on WD a year ago, I was a pretty low attender at church and my Bible sat unopened for most of the time. But following the debate on the Clerical Claptrap thread earlier last year I started reading it and religious literature regularly. I developed an intense desire to know the Bible more intimately. I attend church quite regularly now and I give much much larger amounts of money to my Church and to religious organizations working in third world countries, such as the Christian Blind Mission. I readily access religious links such as the Google ad just now, and when I buy Christmas cards I now go for the religious ones rather than the pretty scenes.
My faith has strengthened enormously through all this debate. I am now far more prepared to openly profess it, am more active in the Church and now openly encourage the younger family members to think about enrolling their children in Scripture classes. So two little girls are now attending such classes.
So thank you WD and Professor Dawkins. You have enriched my life by strengthening, not diminishing my faith in God.
Come on, come on: I'm
Come on, come on: I'm not as clever or as informed as you "renaissance" chappies, but even I can quite clearly see that if Richard Dawkins' book was aimed at attacking the beliefs of such as quoted by Ian McDougall, then, if Dawkins was an honest man, the title would have been along the lines of "The Fundamentalist Delusion", or some such.
And, of course there would have been no sales. He's definitely not silly: his title will sell, even though the book disappoints. His controversial and misleading title is quite in line with the demands of publishers, rather than those of personal or scientific integrity.
Dawkins would not have had to have tweaked his definitions into these absurdist extremes, if not to have tried to justify the book's title..
An honest, honourable man? Mmmm.
No delusions there FK
F Kendall: No, he is definitely not silly when it comes to finding a way to increase his profits from his own delusions. No delusions on that score. Nothing like the good old cover job, and grab title to catch the eye. But as I said the man is just plain stupid if he thinks a world run or dominated by atheists will be paradise, any more than one run and dominated by theocrats. There's nothing like a fool's paradise.
I suppose Dawkins would agree with Malcolm B Duncan on the burning of the churches.
Enlightenment? A tolerant society? Just myths really.
Jenny, you know not what you do
Jenny: "I suppose Dawkins would agree with Malcolm B Duncan on the burning of the churches."
No, Dawkins states that he absolutely does not advocate anything of the sort, and is utterly opposed to such actions. You really should read the book, Jenny, because you don't know what you are writing about here.
Hitler was a Christian who denied that Jesus was a Jew. He said it was the Christian God's will that the Jews be destroyed, thus the Nazis had to wear belts with the inscription "God is with us." As for Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot, they did not kill in the name of atheism, but in the name of their religion-like ideologies. Again, Dawkins addresses all of these points in his book. Read it and get back to us on it, Jenny; I'd be very interested in your response.
Margo: Hello Mike. Glad you're still a Webdiarist. Still on the Gold Coast? Maybe we could finally meet.
Mike - down the track
Mike: On this thread I understood we were talking about belief in a God/s and non belief, ie atheism and the issue of morality. Of course most ideologies take on the form of religion over time as could atheism itself and that is what Dawkins should think about before he tries to convince us all to convert to his atheism. It may not lead to a better society, in act the opposite might be true.
I think it is quite valid to look at what sort of morality a leader with no belief in God, ie an atheist displays and creates in those who serve and act under him. Stalin, Pol Pot (who banned all religions), Mao and their agents all make good case studies. In so far as communism took on the form of a 'religion' so did the atheism that went with it. Churches and temples were burnt and believers pesecuted and murdered in their millions.
If Dawkins were to get his way and all believers became atheists, can you not see a time when it is likely that atheism is the new religion in the West, and anyone who dares to profress a belief in God is persecuted? Burning of the churches in future centuries could well be a reality if not Dawkin's intended outcome.
But we have to be just as mindful of the dangers of radical religious belief.
I beg to differ. Hitler was not a Christian nor were the Nazis even though they might call themselves such. They were hypocrites pure and simple, just as those Americans are who say they proclaim belief in order to get ahead, while privately stating they think it is all nonsense. They just use God as a means to an end, in the case of Hitler, a very evil end.
I will read Dawkins but not as a priority. And when I do I will get back to you, down the track a bit. The drought and my book are my main priorities at the moment, plus a knee op coming up in ten days. Cheers.
Jenny
Jenny, why do you think Hitler's anti-semitism found such fertile ground? So much so that countless "good Christian" Germans were a party to the worst atrocity in human history, the Holocaust? Hitler's Christian-themed message (and I can cite a number of his speeches if you don't believe that) of Jew-hatred found widespread support as a direct result of the preceding centuries of Jew-hatred and persecution of European Jews in the name of the Christian religion. All of which culminated in the Holocaust. Whether Hitler was a "true" Christian or not (and many wars have been fought over such a question in other contexts), there is no getting around the fact that innumerable Christians willingly, and even enthusiastically, participated in the Holocaust.
Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot ordered the murders of countless atheists too - indeed, they sought to wipe out the entire intellectual/educated class, where atheists tend to be found in high numbers. Dawkins' view is that any persecution of someone for thought crimes is wrong, and this applies just as much to persecution of theists as to persecution of atheists by theists. So unlike you I do not fear the prospect of a society of the kind Dawkins hopes for.
You say you were not impressed by Dawkins the man on that show last night; you thought he seemed "arrogant." This seems a common reaction among theists when their beliefs are challenged - to dismiss the challenge as "arrogance."
But what of the breathtakingly ignorant arrogance of those theists on that show last night? Or of the many theists around the world today who would kill me because I reject their barbaric superstitions? That attitude is leagues more arrogant than Dawkins has ever been.
No contest Mike and about dairy and diary
Mike, I would be the last person to deny that appalling things were done in the name of Christianity throughout its history, and that Hitler capitalized on centuries of hatred of the Jews in order to justify his persecution of them, and yes purportedly in the name of Christianity. He was a hypocrite in the extreme as were those who claimed to be Christians and who were complicit with him. And yes, the atheist rulers persecuted just about everybody who opposed them, not just the religious. I acknowledge that.
You have not given any opinion as to whether the decline in religious belief over the past fifty years may be in part responsible for what I will call the negative moral drift in the West which many seem to agonise about. Is Western society in fact morally drifting generally, and if so in what way, why and how can we ensure change is for the better, not the worse.
I do not like the rise of radical religious belief and pratice, nor am I comfortable with atheism when it starts to become a religion. And while Dawkins may not promote that, it could well be the outcome with his disciples in the future being no better than those bomb chucking theists in the ME. I would not be comfortable with a totally atheistic society anymore than I would be with one run by religious fundalmentalists, of whatever creed.
Ross, thanks and yes the book will come out in about a year and you shall have a copy. If you send me your address I will send you a copy of my second book, which will give you a few laughs. WD has my email which you can access with my permission.
Dairy and diary. Yes I often make that mistake but I do know better. Probably because I spent so many years 'on dairy' duty I always type dairy. I milked my first cow before the age of five and my last at 55. I figured I had walked in just ten of those fifty years from Sydney to Perth and back, and milked well over a million cows on the way. That is why, I am sure, the knees are now on strike. C'est la vie. Cheers to you both. I'm off tomorrow to nether parts.
Mike - SBS tonight
Mike: I was interested in the SBS program tonight on intelligent design as I had not really taken a great deal of interest in it to date. What followed was a lively debate in this house between myself and the former science teacher and atheist to whom I am married. In conclusion I can only say that our positions are irreconcilable to say the least. But we respect each other's views and I think that is what really matters.
I agree that you cannot just dismiss science because it cannot give all the answers, but I also argue that you cannot dismiss the possibility of a divine power because argument in favour of it cannot give all the answers either.
I was not terribly impressed by Dawkins in that program. Intellectually arrogant and dismissive while saying really nothing and I think that if anything will fuel the whole intelligent design movement Dawkin's pro-active argument for atheism might turn out to be it.
I believe it is true that western society has "drifted" over the past fifty years with erosion of many of the values and moral standards once firmly held and unquestioned, with indvidualism and greed the new gods. People here have written often that we are a less caring, less compassionate society, less honest. Are they not prepared to even entertain the idea that since that has been accompanied over the past fifty years with a decline in religious belief that there might just be a connection? Is that too uncomfortable for atheists to even consider? And if they do have the courage to consider it and do find a connection would they continue to argue in favour of atheism.
I have just re-read David's piece and the impression it left me with is that morality without God is far from assured. As for a secular legal authority to determine ethical principles, well I suppose the lawyers would make a lot of money, as usual. But surely society as a whole has to determine its values and ethical principles and in doing that in the past we have drawn heavily on religious teachings. So if we get rid of God, I think we have to do better than that. No offence to Malcolm and all his ilk.
Anyway, it is too late for all this. So good night.
Margo: You didn't watch the tennis? And it's goodnight from me, too... Good luck with your knee op., Jenny.
Ads are useful
Margo, yes we did during the ads till it was clear it was a no game. The latin will have to learn to cool his blood a bit if he wants to roll Fed. But this morning my head aches and Ian, standing at the foot of the bed at 6am pontificating from a scientist's perspective has driven me out. Thanks, the knee op will hopefully allow me to get back out onto the burrs where I feel I can prove a point or two. Cheers.
Still looking for that book for your Mum. Will check out Goulburn. Books get carted all over the country with us as you can imagine.
Hi Margo
Yes, still on the Goldie. We can arrange a meeting by email, if you like; perhaps other contributors might be interested in a regional Webdiary get-together as well.
Margo: Maybe. Let's see. Could you send your email address to editor@webdiary.com.au for forwarding to me?
Barbie Calls.
Margo, Mike, Hamish etc. Perhaps we could have that barbie I've been threatening you all with. On the banks of the Terranora estuary? Or very close by.
Margo: sounds good.
Explanation of explanation
Ross Chippendale: "There must be a God, a divine architect. Please mate."
Did I say there was a god, divine architect, first cause, etc, etc? I posted a link to the First Cause Argument, but that does not mean that I accept it.
Mike Lyvers: “Both of you should read Dawkins' book, because in it he addresses each of the points you have made here.”
I have read through my previous post, and cannot find anything in it that might put me in the opposite camp to Dawkins on this issue, though perhaps the subtlety of my own argument escapes me. I did say: “I do not accept that belief in God is a delusion in [the sense of psychosis or hallucination.] It has a certain rational appeal, as have the arguments devised to give traditional belief a rational basis. Not watertight, but rational none the less.” Just because I say something has a certain rational appeal does not imply that I accept it. I was offering it as one explanation of the widespread acceptance by people of the God hypothesis. (And no, I do not think it is the only explanation of peoples’ acceptance thereof.)
For the record, Jenny’s views on religion and mine do not coincide, but we never argue about it. She is more likely to criticise me (quite unreasonably, in case anyone gets the wrong impression here as well) for having a glass too many on New Year’s Eve, or a tiny snack between meals during the day, than for what a Presbyterian might take as theological error or heresy.
As it happens, I am at present writing a rather lengthy piece on William Paley and Intelligent Design school, exploring an angle that I have not seen in print before. It is quite long, and likely to finish up on a website that specialises in the issues it raises, but I will offer it to Webdiary readers in some form or other. I do not think that Richard Dawkins would find much to disagree with in it. I can understand his exasperation with his creationist opponents, (for example, this mob) and decision to hit them between the eyes with The God Delusion. Though I have read a number of Dawkins’ books, this latest is lower in my list of priorities than other titles by other writers presently appearing, and you can’t read them all.
Och, it was but a wee dram
I rather remember a story about you falling over in the gutter, Ian MacDougall. And she fed us fish and other things banned by Leviticus. Never argue? Perhaps you don't listen.
Editor's note: if any of the rest of you would like the name address, and phone number of my kiltmaker, the email is mbduncan@tpg.com.au.
And she can kick too
Malcolm B Duncan: I would not remind me of that wee dram if I were you. And he fed you the fish anyway. Had it been up to me you would all have got your tofu snag or at best a pancake shaped cheese soof. If you were nice you would send me a copper bowl but I suppose you'd be afraid I might take up the church collection in it.
And if you have any ideas about burning down my church I might just kick you, big as you are. Mind you I would never kick a man when he is down in the gutter, tempted as I might be. And no, he does not listen so he's not getting that kilt till he stops sneaking those snacks behind my back.
Trouble is with you men, you don't know how to hide the evidence. Cheese left lying on the cupboard, wine glass left on the ledge, bread packet pulled apart, biscuit tin left out, chocolate wrapper on the floor. Winnie the Pooh would not be in the race around here.
A chap just can't win
I don't much like fish, Jenny Hume, but I love cheese souffles.
As for hiding the evidence, what do you think a good lawyer is for?
David Roffey:
David Roffey, believing in a god who doesn't influence the subsequent fate of his initial creation, or believing in a spiteful god who enjoys watching suffering, or believing in a pantheon of good/bad gods, or even in an evolving god, (which I've been told is a possible interpretation of the hebrew of the OT, for those who believe it), ...is not the same as not believing in god.
"Belief" is not "non-belief", irrespective of what Richard Dawkins would prefer.
When Jenny Hume suggests that "it would be most interesting to hold a forum of believers and atheists", I would suggest that she might be expecting a division between "believers" who hold that there is some presence (reality?) beyond this world, and "non believers", who regard such as superstitious nonsense (sorry if I've misrepresented you, Jenny Hume). Not between differing varieties of beliefs.
You expand Dawkin's definition by stating that: "He specifically identifies that he is attacking those...who believe that God has told them explicitly what to do." Yes, and all others are atheists? Only those who subscribe to this very narrow and extreme vision have religious belief?
You agree with Dawkins' definition, David Roffey, but you haven't defended it.
I doubt whether anyone is embarrassed by the census, btw - if that's a possibility, then one must largely disregard a lot of the more personal information it collects.
Margo: Hi FK. There was a HUGE forum between atheists and believers on Webdiary in 2005 on the topic of intelligent design. T'was while I was in negoiations with Fairfax to try to save Webdiary, just before I had to go independent. A wild ride! See here for the first round, here for the last round and here for the summary of the debate by Webdiary's former beliefs columnist Phil Uebergang. Come back Phil! Or perhaps someone else will do the round?
Improbability and Implausibility
Margo has reminded us of the very interesting forum on Intelligent Design hosted by Webdiary in 2005.
It's interesting that improbability is used as an argument in this thread against the existence of a God or gods. Creationists use the same argument, in the context of genetic mutations, to argue against evolution by natural selection.
Richard Dawkin's highly
Richard Dawkin's highly specific definitions are at odds with both common usage and common sense.
That someone who doesn't believe in "a(n)..intelligence...still around to oversea and influence the subsequent fate of his initial creation", - is therefore an atheist, is to my mind both nonsense and fundamentalist, (although Pat Robertson would probably agree with him).
An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in a god, gods,or divine beings. Arguably, an atheist believes only in a temporal world, and does not have an "amorphous belief in ...a god or force who designed the universe". Or, in any kind of existence post death.
Dawkins appears to be talking of "heretics", not "atheists".
A God who doesn't do anything
Atheism will not necessarily make for a better world
Mike, atheists running a country can do just as much harm to their fellow human beings as any radical religious fanatic. Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler (no please don't tell me Hitler was a practising Christian) Mao, Kim Mk2 in North Korea spring to mind. In fact in the 20th Century atheists probably ruled more people than religious leaders and sought to impose their non belief on them in the most brutal of ways and went about killing them in their tens of millions.
Christian rulers on the other hand have come some way since the Middle Ages. The Islamic world has a long way to go and I would not hold my breath there. But if Dawkins thinks turning people into atheists will automatically lead to a better world then he is just plain stupid. It does not follow one bit. And in regard to science, I doubt it will ever have anything useful to offer in regard to the existence or non existence of God.
David, I assume you refer to opposition to gay marriage by the Churches. But it is not just the Churches which oppose gay marriage is it, nor embryonic stem cell research for that matter either? Gay marriage is not just about the right of gays to marry, there are broader issues that concern some people, atheists included. And when we move ethical boundaries in regard to medical research the next boundary looms large on the horizon. Some of those in the past have even been crossed without the consent or knowledge of the community, such as trialling drugs on the mentally disabled without their or their family's consent, and believe me it is still a concern for families who might place a very mentally disabled relative under the legal Guardianship of the State.
Where there have been no historical ethical boundaries it is very hard to get them put in place (take the lack of ethical considerations that historically characterised use of animals in research and the abuses that led to) and boundaries once moved will be equally hard to redraw. I think many people are cautious when it comes to moving ethical and for that matter moral boundaries, atheists and believers alike.
As for GWB. He may pray to his God, and even claim God guides him, but I think the consensus by the opponents to the war on WD is that it was all about oil and nothing but oil. I have not seen anyone here claim we are in there on some sort of religious crusade to destroy Islam, led by B, B and H, acting under the orders of God.
I see no problem in people setting up a political party based on religious belief, and urging others to vote for them. People set up all sorts of parties on all sorts of issues. That is democracy in action for you. You do not have to vote for them.
Many believers would not agree with you that God does not do anything and frankly I think that statement to FK about undeclared atheism is nonsense. Census form comment, ditto. But cheers anyway. Clearly we paddle different canoes and I would not claim that mine necessarily floats any better than yours. But it will take more than Dawkins to sink it.
Orders of God vs. Orders of God
"Two men say they're Jesus - one of them must be wrong "
- Dire Straits, Industrial Disease (from the album "Love Over Gold")
Jenny notes: "[GWB] may pray to his God, and even claim God guides him, but I think the consensus by the opponents to the war on WD is that it was all about oil and nothing but oil. I have not seen anyone here claim we are in there on some sort of religious crusade to destroy Islam, led by B, B and H, acting under the orders of God."
I have also seen none of the same critics of Dubya's religiosity say a word about Jimmy Carter. Carter is an overt and unabashed Bible-thumper, always has been. Indeed, while governor of Georgia, he criticised Israel for being too secular.
Like Dubya, he claims Jesus is on his side when he's taking sides. So why are no WD'ists ridiculing Carter?
Personally I have no patience for either Carter or Bush, for somewhat different reasons. But I think of both men that their God-on-my-sleeve evangelism is silly. Their expressions of religious belief are for home and church, not the public arena. If their religious beliefs are what inform their ethics and values as expressed in the political arena, that's fine by me. Whatever floats their ark.
Ridiculing Jimmy Carter
... is just too much like mocking the afflicted, so we try not to, plus the man hasn't actually been in power for 27 years ...
This is a great illustration of the Howard/Pahoff/Parsons technique though: "ha", they say "how can I take you seriously when you haven't even ridiculed Jimmy Carter lately / there have been no marches since last week demanding the killing stops / you haven't acknowledged that John Pilger is a crackpot who doesn't check his facts since at least last thursday". This is usually because they've lost the plot somewhere ...
I don't need to ridicule Carter
David, I don't speak for Pahoff or Parsons and they don't speak for me. (I happen to agree with them on some points, but disagree on others). I take full responsibilty for my Carter/Bush comment, so leave Pahoff and Parsons out of it! They can, and do, speak for themselves. If you have an issue with something I've said, have the courtesy and courage to engage with me directly.
I take you seriously, and I am engaging you seriously, and you come back at me with this crap about Pilger?!? Come on, David, you can do better than that. I haven't mentioned Pilger, and I won't. I'm not playing "gotcha" here and I'm slightly annoyed at your response.
I brought up Carter for a serious reason. He was an overtly born-again Christian who made no secret of the very direct role his religious beliefs played in his politics. He was just on the other side of the political spectrum from Bush. So what's the real problem? Is the issue politicians' religiosity, or religiosity in the service of causes you happen not to agree with?
Carter may not be in power, but he's very much in the news, and still carries a lot of clout, as many ex-leaders do (e.g. Keating, Netanyahu, Mandela, etc.). His views get a well-aired and widely-believed hearing. So his religiosity is, IMO, fair game for this thread.
Pillock ... Pillockier ... Pillockiest
"I don't speak for Pahoff or Parsons and they don't speak for me. (I happen to agree with them on some points, but disagree on others)."
Bloody hell. I don't even agree with Pahoff on all points all the time.
Carter was a dangerous pillock when he was in power. He proved the old adage that there is nothing more dangerous than a weak man trying to be strong. He gave peanut farmers a bad name (even before Joh). Now he is a silly old pillock with not enough sense to keep his dumbass mouth shut. His blind redneck in your face holier than thou religious belief is a major component of his all-round general state of pillockness.
"I knew Jimmy Carter...I worked with Jimmy Carter...and you sir may be the worst failure in modern history, but you are no Jimmy Carter"
Perhaps a reference to George W Bush?
Civil rights
The big question on the table is what course can the US take to ensure the least destruction in Iraq. That debate is fuelled by American Evangelicalism as much as by common morality. The political solutions to the crisis will be accepted, though, from people who are part of the religious mainstream, not from Mormonism, Scientology or Buddhism, much less from avowed atheism.
I've got no doubt that Americans will take notice of Senator Chuck Hagel, but since he doesn't seem have played up to the audience Mitt Romney has tooled along with, Hagel could find Fox out and into him with malicious intent.
Jim Wallis, in his God's Politics, wrote (page 18):
I will make a prediction about the candidates for the US presidency. The most successful ones, in the eyes of the media, will be those who are careful not to say too much about the civil rights of Palestinians.
Argument link
Hi again Ian. Have read your link. Interesting but again it's man's attempt to explain something science and the human mind cannot comprehend.
There must be and end, and a beginning? Why?
The only rational(?) explanation we can seemingly come up with is :
David, I hear them knocking, but they can't come in, to quote David Essex.
And of course there's the Lebanese video. That's not religion based at all is it? not!
Enough 2 Party barracking.
God as the laughing dice thrower
Will Howard: You said at January 24, 2007 - 3:10pm: “Science cannot rule out the intervention of a deity, but must not require it. However, for all we know we scientists could be the butt of a cosmic joke and God is having a good laugh at our expense.”
That is a good point. There are no criteria for belief in science and philosophy. There are just probabilities, of whatever basis, to be assigned to statements. I firmly believe that the sun will rise tomorrow, but my only basis for that faith is the fact that it has never so far failed to do so. We also have some science to tell us why it will rise, but none to say that it must inevitably do so, and we can propose some improbable but not zero-probable reasons it may not. For example, it may go critical, and by when tomorrow morning should be, may have exploded as a supernova: unlikely, because as far as we know it is the wrong kind of star for that. If it does, we won’t be around to care anyway. Or overnight it may burn out into a brown dwarf, and tomorrow we will all begin the slow inexorable process of freezing to death. Not likely, but not totally impossible either. Just so close to total improbability as to be dismissible.
While some at present may have reason to doubt that it will ever rain again, I have faith that it will (the ‘it’ in both cases being the atmosphere), simply because every drought so far has ended. This one probably will too.
However if someone told me that the existing drought has been due not to lack of rain, but to the rain falling in the wrong direction, that is upwards away from the Earth’s surface and into outer space, then I would challenge them straight away to provide pretty good evidence for an assertion which was contrary not just to experience, but to fundamental physics.
And if someone went further and told me that the present Australian drought is an illusion; that it has been raining regularly for the last ten years, only I have not been aware of it, I would immediately say “what’s your evidence for that?” And if I got the response: “Well you, Ian, are the only person we know out of a vast number surveyed, who actually believes it has been dry. Everyone else without exception agrees it has been raining, and heavily;” then I would have only two choices: accept that I was deluded, with all the attendant self-doubt; or try to prove my numerous critics wrong, that is, in order very likely to save my own sanity. That would be a much worse position to be in than those occupied by the great scientific dissenters – eg Galileo, Wegener, Hutton, Lavoisier and Darwin, for they only had to prove existing theoretical frameworks wrong, not the facts, which were constant across both competing systems and views.
I do not accept that belief in God is a delusion in that sense. It has a certain rational appeal, as have the arguments devised to give traditional belief a rational basis. Not watertight, but rational none the less.
Those who believe in Divine creation do not dispute the facts, but instead offer an untestable hypothesis to explain them. However, for various interesting reasons, generations of humans have regarded it as a plausible hypothesis. Though it by no means proves them all right, the cosmological or ‘first cause’ argument (amongst others) has been accepted by vast numbers as consistent with their experience (and what they want to believe), while the proposition that there is a teapot orbiting Pluto would, if proven true, cause major rethinks all round. That is, not just because it is arbitrary and wacky, but also because it is inconsistent with all experience to date. If in fact such a teapot was picked up by the next space telescope (Hubble failed in its attempt), one could only conclude that it was either (a) left behind by visitors from outer space, possibly as a joke, or (b) put there by God (definitely as a joke). In the latter event there would be great rejoicing all round, both from the Intelligent Design school (“proved right at last!”) and from doubters like me (“well at least God is not the humourless bastard that the Old Testament portrays Him as.”)