Webdiary - Independent, Ethical, Accountable and Transparent
header_02 home about login header_06
header_07
search_bar_left
date_box_left
date_box_right.jpg
search_bar_right
sidebar-top content-top

Morality without a God

by David Roffey

"… consolatory nonsense seems to me a fair definition of myth, anyway … Myth deals in false universals, to dull the pain of particular circumstances." Angela Carter

The Preface to Richard Dawkins' new book, The God Delusion, says: "If this book works as I intend, religious readers who open it will be atheists when they put it down." On the face of it, a deeply unlikely ambition, and not one that is borne out by the quality of the writing. Along the way, however, it does raise some important questions about the nature of morality, and the relationship of morality to religion.

Let's start with Dawkins' tome …

The God Delusion

Since time immemorial, people have been ascribing what they don't understand to gods and magical beings. This is still the essential argument of many deists, most notably the Intelligent Design / Creationists: "it's too complicated to be explained, therefore a God must have done it". Richard Dawkins, it seems, has had enough of writing popular science texts that attack this idea by explaining the complicated, and has moved on to attack the basic premise.

Dawkins is careful to define the God he is attacking: "a superhuman, supernatural intelligence who deliberately designed and created the universe and everything in it, including us." (p.31) and: "in addition to his main work of creating the universe in the first place, is still around to oversee and influence the subsequent fate of his initial creation." (p.18). Examples: Yahweh, Christ, Allah, but not Buddha or Confucious.

So, we are not here discussing an Einsteinian or Spinozan amorphous belief in (eg) a god or force who designed the universe but has taken no actions in it for several billion years once it was set up or sneezed out of the Great Green Arkleseizure * (busy with some other project?). "To adapt Alice's comment on her sister's book before she fell into Wonderland, what is the use of a God who does no miracles and answers no prayers. Remember Ambrose Bierce's witty definition of the verb 'to pray': 'to ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner, confessedly unworthy'." (p.60)

Failure to understand this distinction as it is intended renders, for example, the New Scientist review of the book meaningless, as well as many other criticisms of it from those who say they do not recognise the God they believe in as the one under attack – simultaneously not recognising that the God they believe in is not the same one that their church, temple or mosque believes in, either.

Second definition: Delusion: "a persistent false belief held in the face of strong contradictory evidence" (MS Word dictionary). Dawkins notes with interest that the illustrative quotation for "delusion" in the Penguin English Dictionary is "Darwinism is the story of humanity's liberation from the delusion that its destiny is controlled by a power higher than itself" (Phillip E Johnson).

Now, clearly any follower of any religion believes that theirs is the only true and valid view. However, there is a wide range of views about what to do about the infidels who don't believe (or, worse, believe in something else). I have a vivid memory of a service led by the saintly Rev Dr Ann Wansbrough which began with a welcome that included the words: "My God loves you whether you believe in him or not." Like everyone else, I also have many vivid memories of news of incidents perpetrated by those who think in more violent terms on how you treat unbelievers. Dawkins' motivation for attacking religion, rather than just ignoring it, is essentially because of the growing prevalence of the fundamentalist and intolerant view amongst followers of many religions (but most particularly in the three Abrahamic faiths). Anyone who has seen Andrew Denton's low-key masterpiece God on my side has seen some good examples. (NB, keep watching to the end of the credits for the best question of the whole film.)

Dawkins has the traditional fun with the myriad contradictions and inconsistencies of the Bible story, and the unlikelihood that anyone could live their life following God's word as set out in it without being banged up for life:

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a mysogynist, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." (p.31)

Knockabout stuff, but not really up to the task of persuading the deluded that Dawkins has set himself. A confirmed deist who took on the penance of reading the whole thing will have no difficulty brushing off the rational (after all, faith in the irrational is how they got where they are to start with). They might give up on page 253, just after St Paul is described by Dawkins (with every justification, admittedly) as "barking mad, as well as viciously unpleasant".

Which would be a shame, because they'd miss some of the more important questions on the next few pages, as Dawkins raises questions of just what exactly is the morality we can get from religious teachings, and where they can lead us. A few recent debates elsewhere on Webdiary might be illuminated by the discussion of Israeli schoolchildren's reactions to and learnings from the story of Joshua and the battle of Jericho (pp.255-7) [NB – worth reading the whole paper by John Hartung from which Dawkins' discussion is drawn.]

Choosing which of God's Rules to follow

The key point raised is this: clearly, good Christians don't get all of their moral teaching from the Bible, or, more accurately, don't get their moral teaching from all of the Bible – they pick and choose amongst God's word for the principles they feel comfortable with, and discard the ones they don't. Faced with the injunction to " utterly destroy all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword" (and keep the gold for the Treasury), most of us have second thoughts, and those that don't tend to end up on trial, as do those Muslims who follow up on the equally lurid odd passages of the Koran.

We all interpret and choose amongst the moralities set out around us, and the evidence is that the choices that atheists and religious people make when faced with moral dilemmas are very similar (pp.222-6). So, Dostoevsky's Ivan Karamazov was almost certainly wrong, and without god, not everything is permitted, and not only because "conscience is that inner voice that warns us that someone may be looking" (HL Mencken).

As one of Dawkins' chapter titles asks: why are we good? He provides a good summary of the evolutionary reasons why individuals might be altruistic, generous or 'moral' towards each other: kinship, reciprocation, reputation-building, and advertising ourselves as good breeding mates. Once we started banging the rocks together with a purpose, thoughtful humans have selected towards these characteristics (though not completely – see Capitalism's Moral Bastards). People who care are just more likely to successfully pass on their genes. We don't need that 'someone who may be looking' to be some omniscient and personified surveillance system with a penchant for smiting or torturing for eternity those who transgress.

On the other side, as we've already aired here, those who do want to do almightily awful things to their fellow human beings (and the rest of the denizens of the planet), can find plenty of justification in the weirder outreaches of their holy books.

As Dawkins sees it (and I agree), the big problem with religion is not so much in the detail of the Jericho's and the '72 virgins', but in the absolutism of the handing down of knowledge, and the aversion to discovery (not to mention the whole Armageddon movement and its view of all the fire, flood and disaster as being preliminaries to final days – and thus not only unavoidable / unpreventable, but to be welcomed).

The question is, now that we're applying intelligence as well as instinct and evolution to our morality, just how do we choose the rules we follow from among those set out by our peers, our parents, or our favourite prophet?

=============================================

Morality without a God

As it happens, while I was reading The God Delusion, I was also reading another book covering this ground from a very different direction: Values, Ethics and Society: Exton Land [an alter ego of writer LE Modesitt Jr (LE = Leland Exton)] **

"What is ‘ethical’ or moral? A general definition is that actions that conform to a ‘right set of principles’ are ethical. Such a definition begs the question: Whose principles? On what are those principles based? Do those principles arise from reasoned development by rational scholars? Or from ‘divine’ inspiration? Does it matter, so long as they inspire moral and ethical behaviour? ... In practice, with or without a deity, every action is permitted unless human social structures preclude it. Yet, on what principles are those social structures based? Ethics and morality?

Theocracies and other societies using religious motives, or pretexts, have undertaken genocide, torture, and war. Ideologues without the backing of formal religious doctrine or established theocratic organizations have done the same. The obvious conclusion is that ‘moral’ values must be ethical in and of themselves, and not through religious or secular authority or rationalized logic. This leads to the critical questions: How can one define what is ethical without resorting to authority, religious doctrine, or societal expediency? And whom will any society trust to make such a judgment, particularly one not based on authority, doctrine, or expediency?"

Setting out some principles

On the face of it, the definition of ethical looks pretty straightforward. It is relatively easy to set out a "new ten commandments" that fit most people's ideas of ethics and morality – Dawkins references some of these – and they will have a substantial overlap with the principles in the Sermon on the Mount – which is one of only three incidents in the story of Jesus that are agreed upon by all the Gospel writers (the others being the baptism and the passion week story). The problem is that atheists are no more likely to actually act on those principles in their day-to-day life than Christians are. If you think I'm being harsh, try looking for the frequency of application of a few examples, say (not at all at random): "Agree with thine adversary quickly" or "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you" or "Judge not, that ye be not judged".

The Golden Rule ("do as you would be done by") would tend to come first, followed by "(strive to) do no harm". Of the original Ten (though actually there is not agreement amongst the sects on what the original Ten are), we can fairly easily accept the injunctions against murder, theft and perjury, while wondering how it came that coveting your neighbours' stuff got to be more worth mentioning than, say, rape or child abuse, and not getting too distracted by the thought that at least some sects have used "honour thy father and mother" as justification for forms of the latter.

"To insist that people not annex their neighbor's cattle or wife 'or anything that is his' might be reasonable, even if it does place the wife in the same category as the cattle, and presumably to that extent diminishes the offense of adultery. But to demand 'don't even think about it' is absurd and totalitarian, and furthermore inhibiting to the Protestant spirit of entrepreneurship and competition.": (Christopher Hitchens, in Slate)

Dawkins, with a modern sensibility, argues for "do not discriminate or oppress on the basis of race, sex or (as far as possible) species", "do not indoctrinate your children" and "view the future on timescale longer than your own". (pp.263-5)

However, this only takes us so far along the route. The principles may be clear, but how do we actually operationalise them in our individual lives and police them in society's rules – and how much do we respect other society's/people's different rules.

"Traditionally, one of the fundamental questions behind every considered attempt to define ethical behaviour has been whether there is an absolute standard of morality or whether ethics can be defined only in terms of an individual and the culture in which that individual lives.

Both universal absolutism and cultural relativism are in themselves unethical. Not only is the application of universal absolutism impractical, but it can be unethical, because the universe is so complex that there are bound to be conflicts between standards in actual application, unless, of course, the standards are so vague that they convey only general sentiments.

‘Be kind to one another’ is good general guidance, but it does not qualify as an ethical standard because the range of interpretation of the meaning of ‘kind’ is so broad as to allow individuals incredible discretion. That does not even take into account the problems when society must deal with unethical or violent individuals.": 'Exton Land'

Interpreting the rules

It isn't only the definition of 'kind' that has been a problem. The other big problem in "be kind to one another" has traditionally been the circumscription of 'one another' to a severely reduced subset of humanity. Dawkins points out that the original Ten Commandments' "thou shalt not kill" only applied to other Jews – killing non-Jews didn't count (and in the case of Jericho and numerous other examples was at God's command). For most of history, 'one another' also didn't include any females, or at least not to the same extent – recall that Lot proved his status as the only man worth saving in Sodom by offering his daughters up for gang rape in place of the angels he was sheltering.

The modern response to these dilemmas sometimes seems to be ever more detailed definition of exactly what is or isn't forbidden / punishable / suable for, with piles of precedent and litigation to hone the edges of liability and guilt. Almost makes you want to hark back to the false certainties of doing what the AllFather tells you…

"The Judeo-Christian concept of ‘original sin’ as defined in basic Christian theology was and remains an extremely useful tool for social indoctrination, because (1) it provides a reason for evil while also allowing people to accept that evil is not the fault of the given individual; (2) supplies a rationale for why people need to be taught ethics and manners; and (3) still requires that people adhere to an acceptable moral code.

Only a small minority of human beings have a strong predilection toward either ‘morality’ or ‘immorality’. This has historically posed a problem for any civil society based on purely secular rule because (1) society in the end is based on some form of self-restraint; and (2) the impetus to require self-discipline and to learn greater awareness of what is evil and unacceptable lacks the religious underpinnings present in a theocracy or a society with a strong theocratic presence. Likewise, history has also demonstrated most clearly that the majority of individuals are uncomfortable in accepting a moral code that is not based on the ‘revelation’ of a divine being, because in matters of personal ethics, each believes his or her ethics are superior to any not of ‘divine’ origin.

As transparently fallacious as this widely accepted personal belief may be, equally transparent and fallacious – and even more widely accepted – are the ethical and moral systems accepted as created by divinities – and merely revealed to the prophets of each deity for dissemination to the ‘faithful’. Throughout history, this has been a useful but transparent fiction because the ‘divine’ origin of moral codes obviates the need for deciding between various human codes. Humans being humans, however, the conflict then escalates into a struggle over whose god or whose interpretation of god is superior, rather than focussing on the values of the codes themselves.": 'Exton Land'

Focusing on our values

It really is becoming very important that we try to focus on the values of the codes (and our society) themselves. We have let our society drift for the last fifty years or so along a path where the values of the individual and the market have been allowed progressively to dominate: where the central dogma is that there is no dogma – there is always another way of looking at things - that all voices deserve a hearing, that all points of view have something of value to offer.

"There is indeed an ethical absolute for any situation in which an individual may find himself or herself, but each of these absolutes exists only for that individual and that time and situation. This individual ‘absolutism’ is not the same thing as cultural relativism, because cultures can be, and often have been, totally unethical and immoral, even by their own professed standards. That a practice or standard is culturally accepted does not make it ethical. There have been cultures that thought themselves moral that practiced slavery, undertook genocide, committed infanticide, and enforced unequal rights based on gender or sexual orientation.

The principle practical problems with individual absolutism are that, first, one cannot implement a workable societal moral code on that basis, and, second, that any individual can claim unethical behaviours to be moral in a particular situation, which, given human nature, would soon result in endless self-justification for the most unethical and immoral acts. That said, the practical problems do not invalidate absolute individual morality, only its societal application …

In practice, what is necessary for a society is a secular legal structure that affirms basic ethical principles (eg, one should not kill, or injure others; one should not steal or deceive, etc), and that also provides a structured forum, such as courts, in which an accused has an unbiased opportunity to show that, under the circumstances, his behaviour was as moral as the situation allowed. Such a societal structure works, however, as demonstrated by history, only when the majority of individuals in the society are willing to sacrifice potential self-interest for the value of justice, and such societies have seldom existed for long, because most individuals eventually place immediate personal gain above long-term societal preservation.

The faster and more widely this ‘gospel of greed’ is adopted, the more quickly a society loses any ethical foundation – and the more rapidly it sows the seeds of its own destruction.": 'Exton Land'

The reaction to blatant wrongdoing that contravenes our basic values can be reduced to "well, that's the only way you can do business over there". If the only values we all submit to are the values of the market, then 'a fair go' doesn't get a market value, nor do the rest of the 'Australian Values' the Commonwealth is about to spend a small fortune on in our schools. (Hands up who can name them? - to save you, they are: Fair Go; Care and Compassion; Understanding, Tolerance and Inclusion; Integrity; Doing Your Best; Freedom; Respect; Responsibility - and doesn't our Federal Government stand up for all of these every day as an example to our kids.)

Letting market value determine the rules

"What happens to ethics and morality when economics reigns unchecked – when the negative externalities of not following an ethical course are not included in the marketplace? Laissez-faire economic systems simply assume that everything has a price, and that, if left alone, supply and demand will balance at an optimum price. As a general rule, it works fairly well. Or it does so long as there is an independent moral system underlying it.

Assume everything has a price. Does that mean that ethical behaviour also has a price? And that, if it is scarce, it becomes harder and harder for the average citizen to purchase?

Look at history, How many societies were there where ethical behaviour in trade and government were not the norm, but where bribery was necessary merely to ensure that both merchants and functionaries did their jobs? Then, in the worst cases, whether or not the job was done depended not on ethics, but on market power, on who could pay the highest price. In some societies, that was obvious. In others, that aspect of the market economy is far from obvious. They have an elected government, and everyone can vote. And they have a seemingly open legal system. But that system is based on the assumption that an adversarial system will provide the truth and justice. At times, it does, but only when both advocates are of close to equal ability and when the issues are relatively simple. Most times, the court ends up deciding for the party with the most resources, unless the case happens to be one that is truly egregious. The same thing happens with legislative bodies, because once large nation-states developed and modern communications emerged, the number of citizens represented by each legislator grew so large that only those candidates with the resources to purchase those communications services could reach the citizens. So, in the end, both the laws and their interpretation become commodities purchased by the highest bidders.": 'Exton Land'

How far are we down the road to a society where market power overrules democracy always and everywhere? I'm fascinated by how the Right are divided over this question: while some will protest that all is best in this best of all possible worlds, and our version of democracy is so strong and pure that it must be exported to the rest of the world (at gunpoint, if necessary), there is another faction that may have gotten quieter about the 'greed is good' philosophy since Wall Street, but basically believes it still.

The latter view is often mixed up with some simplistic interpretation of Adam Smith's 'invisible hand', and views such as this:

"The rich ... divide with the poor the produce of all their improvements. They are led by an invisible hand to make nearly the same distribution of the necessaries of life which would have been made, had the earth been divided into equal proportions among all its inhabitants." Adam Smith (1759), The Theory of Moral Sentiments. London: A. Millar, 1790. Part IV. Of the Effect of Utility upon the Sentiment of Approbation in paragraph IV.I.10

This earlier 'invisible hand', which predates the more famous one in the later Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations (1776), exposes the habitual misapplication of the term, because The Theory of Moral Sentiments is imbued throughout by the unstated assumption that the aforementioned rich operate in a society with a shared set of values ('moral sentiments') based on pervasive agreements on ethics and morality that our society has largely left behind (or reserved for a small and compartmentalised segment of life).

A 'crisis of faith'?

There is some (mostly anecdotal) evidence that the general run of our society is becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the direction we are taking. Whether this unease or malaise is going to translate into action is far from clear.

"A societal crisis of faith occurs when the values that produced a particular incarnation of a society no longer correspond to the values held by the individuals and organisations holding economic, political, and social power in that society. Paradoxically, these value changes seem to occur first on a social level. In reality the changes are already far advanced by the time they appear, because in most societies social standing and mobility lag behind economic and political power. Those with economic power seldom wish to flaunt values at variance with social norms, and those in the political arena prefer a protective coloration that in fact straddles the perceived range of values, while ostensibly preferring the most popular of values …

Although all stable societies rest firmly on a consensus of values, invariably the individuals in those societies prefer not to discuss those values, except in glittering generalities, not because they are unimportant, but because they are so important that to discuss them seriously might open them to question and interpretation. Thus, the very protections of a society’s values preclude any wide-scale and public re-evaluation of those values and any recognition of a potential crisis of values.": 'Exton Land'

The need for a new consensus

We are coming to a period where the challenges to society are going to require actions that need a radical change to the fundamental ethics we hold so deeply that we haven't hardly questioned them at all. Only a short while ago, our Prime Minister got away almost unquestioned with the theory that we couldn't possibly consider doing anything about the future of the planet if it was going to potentially cost Australian jobs: even now the rhetoric is still (qua the Stern review) that saving the planet is only on the agenda because it might not cost any jobs after all.

We need a new consensus on morality and ethics. Coming full circle to where we started, I don't think we can look to religion to get us there, because although there are many wonderful and moral people in all major religions, large factions of the religious hold to various versions of either "let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth", or "these are the latter days, fire and flood, and there is nothing we can do to stop it" – this last being a direct quote from conversation with a famous Australian of evangelical bent.

Where are we going to get our consensus? Everywhere, I guess. David Curry's boy gets his worldview at least in part from The Lion King. Probably a better place to start than The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, which in the film version at least was so heavily into the Church Militant and smiting that I ended up cheering for the Witch. I, in my turn, have taken much of my text from the sidebars of a novel.

However we get there, the process must be at least as moral and ethical as the result.

"From the beginning of human history, there has always been a debate over the ethics of ends and the ethics of means. Can a good and ethical solution result from the use of unethical or immoral means? Does the end justify the means? Virtually all ethicists would agree that, of course, it does not, because, first, actions should be ethical in and of themselves, and, second, because corrupt means almost invariably result in corrupting the ends."

=============================================

Notes

* "The Jatravartid People of Viltvodle Six firmly believe that the entire universe was sneezed out of the nose of a being called The Great Green Arkleseizure. They live in perpetual fear of the time they call The Coming Of The Great White Handkerchief." The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy: Dawkins' book is dedicated to Douglas Adams.

** 'Exton Land's writings are scattered through the section and chapter headings of Modesitt's books: all of the quotes above come from The Ethos Effect. As David Brin noted in the speech cited in the text, science fiction is one of the places where human creativity can explore the big questions without getting bogged down in the specifics of history and particular hard cases.

left
right
spacer

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

Heaven or Hell?

The Rev. Jerry Falwell, the television evangelist who founded the Moral Majority and used it to mold the religious right into a political force, died Tuesday shortly after being found unconscious in his office at Liberty University. He was 73.

Days after Sept. 11, 2001, Falwell essentially blamed feminists, gays, lesbians and liberal groups for bringing on the terrorist attacks. He later apologized.

In 1999, he told an evangelical conference that the Antichrist was a male Jew who was probably already alive. Falwell later apologized for the remark but not for holding the belief. A month later, his National Liberty Journal warned parents that Tinky Winky, a purple, purse-toting character on television's "Teletubbies" show, was a gay role model and morally damaging to children.

Falwell was re-energized after family values proved important in the 2004 presidential election. He formed the Faith and Values Coalition as the "21st Century resurrection of the Moral Majority," to seek anti-abortion judges, a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage and more conservative elected officials.”

Falwell is dead. Will he go to heaven, hell or just feed the worms?

Is Hell exothermic or endothermic

The following is supposedly an actual question given on a University of

 Washington chemistry mid-term.  The answer by one student was so "profound" that the professor shared it with colleagues, via the Internet, which is, of course, why we now have the pleasure of enjoying it as well.


Bonus Question: Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs heat)? Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law  (Gas cools when it expands and heats when it is compressed) or some variant.  One student, however, wrote the following:

 
First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we need to know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell and the rate at which they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving.

 
As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Most of these religions state that
If you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there Is more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell.
  With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in
Hell to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change of the

volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand proportionately as souls are added.

 
This gives two possibilities:

 
1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.

 

2. If Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell,

 Then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.

 
So which is it?

 If we accept the postulate given to me by Rebecca during my Freshman year that, "it will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you, and take into account the fact that I slept with her last night, then number 2 must be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic and has already frozen over. The corollary of this theory is that since Hell has frozen over, it follows that it is not accepting any more souls and is therefore  extinct,.leaving only Heaven thereby proving the existence of a divine being which explains why, last night, Rebecca kept shouting "Oh my God."

THIS STUDENT RECEIVED THE ONLY "A

 

Dinosaurs on Noah's Ark

  “Matthew recorded his history teacher, David Paszkiewicz, making comments in class in September, including remarks that only Christians had a place in heaven, that the Big Bang and evolution theories were not scientific and that dinosaurs were on Noah’s Ark. After the tapes became public, Matthew received a death threat and was shunned and bullied by some of his classmates, he has said.”  See here.

No wonder the US has trouble understanding history if this is the quality of its history teachers.

 

 

Religion makes you do stupid things!

“Muslim men were taken into custody this week, charged with plotting a terrorist attack against soldiers at the Fort Dix military reservation. Their arrests reverberated through the extended Duka dynasty, from southern New Jersey to the village of Debar, in Macedonia, the family’s ancestral home.

“It’s fine to be a religion man,” said Murat Duka, 55, a distant relative of the defendants who was the first of the Dukas — now numbering about 200 — to move to the Northeast and work as a roofer. “But if you get too much to the religion, you get out of your mind and you do stupid things.  See here

“Too much religion makes you do stupid things.” I suggest that even a little religion makes you do stupid things.


 

 

America's first 9/11 another nail in the coffin of religion.

The date was 11 September. A group carried out an act of religious terrorism on American soil, raining indiscriminate death on innocent people. It remains a scar on the country's collective memory.

This was the 'other' 11 September, in 1857, when fundamentalist Mormon settlers opened fire on a wagon train, leaving more than 120 men, women and children dead in a flowery field. The Mountain Meadows Massacre, which happened about 300 miles south of Salt Lake City in Utah, is an episode often left out of history books in Britain and even in the United States.

Yet another nail in the coffin of organized religion.

we're all alone in this mess

G'day John Pratt and Roger Fedyk.

One problem is with 'supernatural.' Those wishing to avoid that skip to (2).

This thread is 'Morality without a God' and refers to Dawkins' "The God Delusion." I'm about halfway through the book so I cannot yet discuss Dawkins' final conclusion (presuming there is one), but I do have my own home-grown theories. Specifically here, that no 'god' is required. The chezPhil cosmology is based on the conservation laws[1], which have never been shown to be violated. From this I deduce that all the matter in the universe - that is what we can or cannot see within our own 'bubble,' plus all the rest outside always existed in some form or other, only the mode of existence changed at the 'Big Bang' moment. That is to say that the universe went through a 'phase-change,' somewhat analogous to how highly constrained superheated water can 'flash' into steam if the pressure is suddenly reduced. (Further, that there is no size 'limit;' the universe just goes on and on and on, all the way(!) out to infinity. Ouch.) Our 'bubble' is defined as a sphere of radius equal to the time from the Big Bang until the current moment, times the speed of light; this defines our 'visible universe.' In actual fact (as far as I am aware from my reading - as an ordinary mortal, i.e. not an actual professional cosmologist), our visible universe is slightly smaller than this notional bubble, since the oldest radiation we have observed (or ever can observe?) is the Cosmic microwave background radiation, which set out on its journey to us at about 380,000 years after the Big Bang moment.

Now, my theory does not rule out some 'god;' one could still ask "Well, where did it all come from anyway?" - I admit that not much is (logically) changed by deciding that 'the universe was always there,' attempting to avoid any 'creation' step. Dawkins points out that if one postulates a (supernatural) universe creator, then where did that creator itself come from? Dawkins calls that an infinite regress. Sidestepping that one, one could possibly ask "Well then, why did it phase-change?" - postulating, say, some outside 'god' agency to have pulled the trigger.

To all this I say "Who cares?" - Because the chezPhil cosmology also states as a corollary that no message can be exchanged with our universe from 'outside' - 1st, because there is no outside, and 2nd, the conservation laws forbid any such communication. Sooo, any 'god' would have to a) exist apart from our universe, and b) could not communicate with us in any way... so where - the hell - did this 'god' idea come from in the first place? Note that 'no communication' goes both ways - unless by some undetectable(!) mechanism, aka supernatural[2] - Ooops! And here, then, is 'the rub.' Any 'god' must perforce be supernatural and communicate supernaturally, but no conservation law has ever been shown to be violated - so if some 'god' construct can communicate with humans, then humans would need a corresponding supernatural part too - Ta ra! - the (everlasting!) soul. Oh, boy. But it's still not clear how prayer could bring rain? Speaking of supernatural, it would be Oh, so easy to throw us a miracle or three, but Q: Where (the hell) are they? A: Nowhere - and no proof needed; it's all a matter of faith, you know! I despair. 'Supernatural' causes me cognitive dissonance - and still no rain.

On this point, then, I do not know what anyone could possibly have 'faith' in, apropos any 'god' entity. Postulating a whole supernatural system - 'outside' of and wholly separate from the physical universe and undetectable by any measurement seems like a toadally® fantastic[3] and unnecessary embroider, which Ockham[4] should razor straight into the bin.

Roger proposes that some 'god' may reside within a person, "provable only by a life of faith or lack of it." Hmmm. Then, there's the bit John quoted: “A person who shares everything that they have can never say "there is no God".” This sounds suspiciously like some sort'a trick.

-=*=-

2. Getting back to the idea of 'Morality without a God,' I also have my own attempt at formalising one, the chezPhil morality; in a nutshell it's based on "Do unto others ..." but here I wish to emphasise empathy. The idea of sharing things - outside the immediate family, say, could be as a result of inbuilt altruism. The in-building would'a been done by evolution:

Treat him well, he is your brother
You might need his help some day
We depend on one another
Love him, that's the only way

[abba/He Is Your Brother]

Of course, the 'brother' in the song means all humans. I'm all for a better sharing. I 'believe' (hmmm, that word!) - I believe that not only are we 'led' by murdering, thieving (even if 'only' by proxy) crooks, but they're positively ripping us off in the resources sector by not paying adequate recompense (yeah; the good old 'resource-rent' rip-offs.) My point here is that there's plenty'a dough that should be coming our way but isn't. In addition, here's a piece that says we can afford to rescue humanity, for (much!) less than the current defence budgets:

Mobilizing to save civilization means restructuring the economy, restoring the economy’s natural support systems, eradicating poverty, and stabilizing population. We have the technologies, economic instruments, and financial resources to do this.

[earth-policy.org/ICH/Lester R Brown, Plan B: Budget For Saving Civilization]

If only half of that article is true, it'd actually be a snap to save the whole effing planet, and the fat-cats could even stay fat. If only!

Conclusion: Yep, we're deeep into it, right up to our bottom lips. Our so-called leaders ignore the greedastrophe® at our mortal peril. Only people toadally devoid of empathy or altruism or both could react in the extraordinarily callous way B, B & H say, are murdering for oil in Iraq; such people must effectively be sub-human Neanderthal throw-backs, those with the faith may say 'godless,' but perhaps psychopathic criminals would be the best description.

-=*end*=-

Ref(s):

[1] Conservation law

In physics, a conservation law states that a particular measurable property of an isolated physical system does not change as the system evolves. Any particular conservation law is a mathematical identity to certain symmetry of a physical system. A partial listing of conservation laws that are said to be exact laws, or more precisely have never been shown to be violated:
Conservation of energy
Conservation of linear momentum
Conservation of angular momentum
Conservation of electric charge
Conservation of color charge
Conservation of probability

[wiki/Conservation]

[2] supernatural —adj. not attributable to, or explicable by, the laws of nature; magical; mystical. —n. (prec. by the) supernatural forces, effects, etc.  supernaturally adv. [POD]

[3] fantastic adj. 1 colloq. excellent, extraordinary. 2 extravagantly fanciful. 3 grotesque, quaint.  fantastically adv. [Greek: related to *fantasy] [ibid.]

[4] William of Ockham (or Occam) (c.1290–c.1347) English theologian and scholastic philosopher. He was a Franciscan friar who developed an anti-papal theory of the state, denying the pope secular authority and was excommunicated in 1328, living thereafter in Munich under Emperor Louis IV's protection. His form of nominalist philosophy saw God as beyond human powers of reasoning, and things as provable only by experience or by (unprovable) scriptural authority. Hence his famous maxim, `Ockham's razor', that the fewest possible assumptions should be made in explaining a thing (see ontology). [Oxford Pop-Up]

What Fixes The Problem?

Phil, as you know I believe in the science and as you point out the science says some fairly straighforward things about how the universe works.

However, in the comments that I have made here, I am interested in what makes things better. For examples, what a relief it would be if our children could walk to school and not be in danger. As a child I did that for seven years and my parents were rarely worried.

What makes the difference between today and 50 years ago? Without being nostalgic, what will gives us a world that we can live in with joy?

It has to come from within all of us.

Blessed Teresa of Calcutta

I have to get in at least a quick rejoinder on Mother Teresa, an appalling woman who was responsible for far more pain and poverty through campaigning against contraception than her 'good works' could ever alleviate ... A truly instructive example of the problems of dogma ...

Ah David!

Yes, you and Christopher Hitchens are soul mates. 

What quantitative and qualitative device would you use to measure "more pain and poverty" as against Agnes "good works"? Of course, the quoted reference to these "works" shows that you only grudigngly accept that they actually were so.

And so, what would be better then, that there was no Mother Theresa or that there was? Using the oft-quoted maxim about "just one life spared/saved/etc", who, of those who were helped, would you choose not to be the recipient of her beneficence. Is there a criteria that you can suggest? One per 1000 potential condoms, at random?

I find myself puzzled as to how her opposition to contraception and abortion disqualifies her life's work from praise. It is not disputed that she took nothing for herself and gave everything that she was able to. What is her real fault and if there were a million Mother Theresa's what would be the difference to the world's dispossessed? They could use her in many places today.

Dogma has nothing to do with it. The great thing about this little lady was that she acted with a passion and with little regard for herself. What the Catholic Church wants to do with her memory is irrelevant. She did the hard yards and she deserves the plaudits.

God of all that is good

Roger, I agree with most of what you have written. Although I am not sure about the logic in this sentence of yours “A person who shares everything that they have can never say "there is no God".”

What worries me about the God of John Howard and George Bush is sharing seems to be a very small part of their religion. I think far too much emphasis is given to a book written by a committee that seems to predict that we are all going to meet a very nasty end.

If the God you describe, is a personal God that equates to all that is good in the world, great you have outlined a God we can all believe in.

People who believe in a God that can deliver Armageddon are likely to believe that things such as Global Warming, Nuclear Holocaust and Middle East wars are part of God's plan and are extremely dangerous. People who claim to have God on their side have come and gone sometimes leaving millions of dead and maimed in their path.  

In a world which demands immediate action on a variety of fronts such a global warming and the global sharing of resources. We know what the God of good would have us do. People who urge us to pray to God and do nothing to bring about a better world, are fools or villains.

Well Said

John, I can see that you have a fairly well-developed sense of godliness.

When you can create universes, what would you find of merit in the building of cathedrals or hierarchies? If politicians invoke your name how is that any more worthy than the desperate plea of a mother in Darfur?

If God does not answer the mother it says more about us and not God. If God is to be the Superman who runs the world then we have no need of governments, businesses, homes, schools or civilisation.  Are we ready to surrender our free will?

The proof is clear, however, that we need institutions to survive as a co-operative species. That can be said to be a Godly gift. It also suggests that we don't need God as a object to pray to. Everything that we need to fix the world's ills is in our hands and always has been and will be. The key to unlocking this power is humility and a belief in our capacity to emulate Goodness. It does not need shamans or priests or religious demagogues or institutions.

One of the interesting parts of the New Testament, is the description of Judgement Day. It says nothing about standing there with your fellow congregation members and pastor to be judged as group. The story says you will stand alone to answer for your own life choices. No suggestion that there will be a collegial dispensation, time of for good behaviour or the factoring in of a hard upbringing.

The evidence seems overwhelming that we will fail to survive as long as we view God as our miracle worker instead of recognising the miracle within.

God is either non existent or uncaring.

John Howard has urged everyone to pray for rain after warning that the millions of people along the Murray-Darling Basin will have only enough water for basic domestic use from the middle of the year.

We ask for leadership and we get this rubbish from Howard.

Praying to a non existent or uncaring God is no answer for proper policy. We must get rid of politicians that believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden?

God Is?

John, there is something of the 'dog and flea' in your assertion that "God Is Either Non Existent Or Uncaring'.

Let us assume that there is a God, the omnipotent, omniescient and omnipresent. How would a human intellect comprehend the awesome in terms that could do justice? That proposition is non-sensical.

Let us also assume that there is no God. What would be a satisfactory proof?

The answer turns out to be the same in both cases, namely, unprovable by dint of the intellectual exertion but provable only by a life of faith or lack of it.

If you say there is no God then it is undisputably true in your existence. You leave no possibility that He exists for you and therefore He does not. If I say that He does exist then He does just for me, as a matter of faith and not intellect. We can prove nothing to each other. Our existences share no commonality on that point.

What is certain, to me, is that there is no mystical being who can be conjured by prayer or obeisance. Praying to a God for favours is a non-sequitur. We are required to live exactly as if there is no God, that is, one breath at a time while at the same time living as if there is a God. All the inspirational wonder of our existence comes from that paradox.

In each breath, we have the opportunity to open ourselves to the grandeur of a shared existence where our life has meaning in the meaning of other lives. Miracles are born in the crucible that burns away the self and leaves only the desire to help and do no harm.

Mother Theresa is a good example of the proof that there is a God because selfless living is only found in having a reason to surrender yourself, that is acknowledging a greater power than just your own existence.

There are others, Gandhi, Buddha amongst many who also taught the true meaning, the proof, of whether God exists. If He exists at all He exists in us. He is not to be found in clouds or buildings or the paraphenalia of living. He exists only in what we do selflessly for others.

A person who shares everything that they have can never say "there is no God". Therein lies the great moral challenge for most of us.

On John Howard's exhortation to pray, I would be all for it if it meant a genuine desire to live in harmony with the earth and not just exploit it. If we are going to continue to rape and pillage every resource at our disposal, something that we seem to think is our birth right without acknowledging the rights of future generations, then why should a single prayer be answered? Is God required to supply miracle after miracle, correcting the follies of each generation, to prove to us that He exists?

In 100 years every molecule of natural gas within the sovereign purview of our nation will have been sold to China in return for cheap underpants etc. Eventually Australia will be one very large hole in the ground. I wonder if our great-great-grandchildren will hold our memory dear for our wanton needs under the guise of the political mantra that one of our number knew how to really manage our economy. Perhaps John Howard or Rudd are really God.

It will rain again whether we pray or don't but that won't fix the real problem, will it?

Well I probably shouldn't

John, I probably shouldn't buy into this one again, but I see no harm in Howard asking that believers at least pray for rain.

But as you say the lack of policy and much earlier action is what is the issue here.

As for moving farming north as you support on the other thread, well I am far from convinced about that. It might be cheaper to move the water south. There are limitations as to what water conserving infrastructure can be built due to the flat topography in the north and the seasonal dries and wets limit just what can be grown and produced. Disease and pest problems have also plagued many rural enterprise in the north in the past. Remember the rice at Humpty Doo and those damned geese? Mind you the galahs harvested our almonds in NNSW before they were even ripe so pests abound here too. But not on the same scale as a rule. As for those cattle ticks up there. They are hard to beat.

It would be interesting to study the Ord in WA and see just how succesful that has been in terms of agricultural production. Most eastern urban Australians do not even know it exists I suspect.

But we may have no choice. If the drying continues for years down here, then move over, we may all be forced up there. Lucky you, all that greenery. Cheers

Relativism vs dogma

Truly excellent article by Julian Baggini in the Guardian, which I missed first time around, but came round again in the Guardian Weekly. Some extracts (but read the whole thing):

"The clash of civilisations is happening not between Islam and the west, as we are often led to believe, but between pragmatic relativism and dogmatic certainty. On this analysis, it is easy to see liberal democracy not as the crowning achievement of civilisation but a manifestation of a laissez-faire, morally bankrupt modernity."

"How did we get to this dismal Hobson's choice? The finger of blame has to be pointed largely at academics and intellectuals who have been so keen to debunk popular notions of truth that they have created a culture in which the middle ground between shoulder-shrugging relativism and dogmatic fundamentalism has been vacated."

"It turns out that Rorty and his ilk seriously misjudged what happens if intellectuals deny truth stridently and frequently enough. Far from making liberal openness more attractive, such denials actually make it appear empty, repugnant and weak compared to the crystalline clarity and certainty of dogma.

They owe us an apology for failing to either see themselves, or make it clear to others, that in the everyday world we can and must distinguish truth and falsity, right and wrong, even if on close examination these terms do not mean what we thought they did. "

"Unless we can make a convincing case that the choice is not between relativism or dogmatism, more and more people will reject the former and embrace the latter. When they do, those who helped create the impression that modern, secular rationality leaves everything up for grabs in the marketplace of belief will have to take their share of the blame."

Down with PoMo! And thanks, David.

David, thanks, the Baggini article is very good, and a worthy addition to the collection Solomon (who by now I am sure has changed his mind about PoMo) and I have been putting together on the Time to Repair Our Reputation thread.

Cognitive dissonance, or what? (morals)

In the first instance, it's not 'cognitive dissonance' or 'What?' - they are two alternates converging on the same thing.

"Cognitive dissonance is a psychological term which describes the uncomfortable tension that comes from holding two conflicting thoughts at the same time. More precisely, it is the perception of incompatibility between two cognitions, where 'cognition' is defined as any element of knowledge, including attitude, emotion, belief, or behaviour."

From 'Bringing up Baby:' "Do your best!"

Each parent (one assumes) wants only the best for their littlies, and so they try to instil what I term 'natural morals' into their sprogs.

When I say 'natural morals' I mean the usual, i.e. one should not lie, cheat, steal etc. (or murder, but usually young sprogs are 'protected' from murder until they're older.)

Apology: some time ago, I 'blamed' Newscientist for introducing the phrase "Can we be good without God," when in fact it's a book title. Sorry. But not too sorry, and although 'our Christian traditions' espouse a similar morality to my 'natural' one, they rather blot their copybook in many ways, i.e. by allowing the 'just war' concept, say. This is a violation of what one might assess as the strongest commandment "Thou shalt not kill!"

Irrespective of whether you are religious or not, dear reader, do you think it's right, that anyone should lie, cheat, steal or murder?

If you think that those are wrong things to do then congratulations, looks like you have decent morals.

-=*=-

Now, one sure sign of madness, or so 'they' say (who ever the hell 'they' are) - is doing the same thing over and over, all the while expecting some different result ("What?" - Oooops! See: cognitive dissonance...)

I've said about a squillion times that the US/UK/Aus illegal invasion turned brutal occupation is - Ta ra! "Murder for oil." So far, not to too much effect, but I'm always hopeful that that will someday change. Sooo, I do not think I should stop saying it, not till things improve, anyway.

At the same time as I keep saying it, the professional killers ('our boys') B, B & H sent to "Go play in Iraq" are still doing their cruel killing, all the while with the intent of stealing Iraq's oil.

So really daaarlings, if there is any question of madness here, is it madness to decry this dreadful killing spree, or is it madness to keep ordering it, i.e. "Stay the course in Iraq; next stop Iran?"

As my title has it: Or what?

What's the use of us having any morality, when our so-called leaders violate it in every way?

Doesn't that immediately arouse cognitive dissonance, or what?

-=*end*=-

Epilogue: "Let me put that, another way:"

One might expect that things should get better, that we should be making some sort'a positive progress. Is it a positive step, do you think, that one group of people should steal another's property at the point of a gun, not 'just' with threats by but using actual violence, murdering 10s if not 100s of 1000s? Instead of doing the same thing over and over, i.e. killing ever more whilst stealing other's stuff, when and how might we start making some'a that positive progress?

Or what? Hmmm?

We've wandered so far off

We've wandered so far off topic here that I feel free to quote from the SMH:  "Our father, who art in heaven, Allah be thy name..."  Add in a few useful bits from the Lion King, and perhaps a bit of ancestor worship, and I think there might be a recipe for a universal religion.

Syd Drate, I've only seen a few of your posts, but I salute you.  It's hard to go into the unknown by oneself.  You have shown much grace and bravery.  I wish you well, wish you peace, wish you comfort.

PP McGuiness

Mike Lyvers,  PP McGuiness, who makes the claims of Dawkin's intolerance that I quoted above, is an atheist.

F Kendall

Yes I am aware of that, which is why in the same article he says "Dawkins is of course correct."

Quite interesting pro and con

Quite interesting pro and con viewpoints re Dawkin's The God Delusion in The Australian today (Review section).

PP McGuiness, who gives the atheists' viewpoint, does not commend the book or its arguments.  Among much else, he says: 

"....this latest effort is not really worthy of him.  ....his hatred of religion ...lead him into excessive one-sidedness, and a demonstration of his own ignorance of many relevant issues..."

"The worst manifestation of ideology, religious or not, is intolerance......Dawkins is an extreme example."  

Thanks for the link F Kendall.

F Kendall, thank you for the link to the review. It is true that hatred of religion can be so great that it removes any capacity for tolerance and objectivity which is why, from what I have read here, I am not particularly interested in wasting time reading Dawkins. Life is too short to bother with fanatics, religious or atheist.

Horrendous dust storm here tonight, (about all I needed right now), but followed by that nice shower of rain I have been praying for this past week. At least it washed the air clean again. Somebody lost a lot of topsoil today.that is for sure.   

You will be pleased to hear I took your advice and my book has been coming on well while I am housebound.

"I promise to care"

"I promise to care for planet earth and all living things thereon....to treat all persons everywhere with dignity, respect, and friendliness...to have no more than one or two children....to contribute to those less fortunate, to help them become self-sufficient....I reject the use of force, in particular military force, and I support United Nations arbitration of international disputes."

The above is Ted Turner's rewrite of the 10 Commandments.

Morality and ethics? Well off to gaol with you.

F Kendall: "I promise to care for planet earth and all living things thereon...."

All living things? Well be careful how you go about exercising that care my dear or you may be in breach of one of Costello's proposed new laws and end up in gaol. The man has apparently decided that anyone calling for a boycott of goods on ethical and moral grounds must be stopped and is looking at what laws will be necessary to ensure that those wretched people who call for you, the consumer, not to buy battery eggs for your brekky, or worse, a fur for your back, are locked up.

All in line with a recent report in The Land  that Minister McGaurin was considering ways to limit the power and activities of animal activists.

Consistent too I suppose with his statement on TV the other night in the face of the latest images of the abominal cruelty to our sheep shipped to Egypt (restarted recently under his so called memorandum of understanding with the Egyptians) that if we don't send our sheep, someone else will send theirs. So no, he says he sees no reason to suspend the trade again.  

So it seems two wrongs do make a right after all, at least with this government. Forget about morality and ethics. Such words are no longer in Howard/Costello and Co's or this government's dictionary and they want to make sure they are not in ours either. And to think I used to vote for them.  But can we hope for anything better from Rudd? Well, I am beginning to wonder after all the back scratching that is going on down there lately. Far too cosy.

Oh well, I suppose 300 000 dead sheep on ships over the last six years alone are only sheep, not worthy of any duty of care as far as any politician is concerned.  It was, after all, a Labour senator who headed the inquiry into the live sheep trade over twenty years ago and said it should be phased out, recognising that it could never be made humane. And Hawke and Keating did nothing about it. None of them give a damn and they never have. Where money and big business are concerned, ethics and morality are just dirty words. Who could blame the AWB? It was only following the example set by governments of this country over past few decades.

So F Kendall,  shalll we all review our duties of care right now to make sure no ethics and morality get in our way? After all, who wants to go to gaol just over a few hundred thousand suffering sheep, or chooks. Just think of them as replaceable cogs in a production line and enjoy, as they say.

Well, as far as I am concerned Costello he can help pass all the laws he likes, but he will not silence me, or any of my friends in the animal rights movement. Threats, attempts at intimidation, prosecution,  and gaol are no strangers to any of us. And the more they try such tactics the more they empower us. A wealthy company tried that on my group once, and it came off second best, with legislation being passed that effectively banned its activities involving certain use of animals in the ACT. Legislation that still stands, some twenty years or more on.  So just try it, Mr Costello, just try it. It is what we have come to expect from your mob down there anyway.

Get well, Jenny.

My wife suffers from asthma too, so I know how miserable an asthma attack can be. Take it easy and take your preventative meds.

Makes one wonder, why would a loving Intelligent Designer create conditions like asthma? Or even worse things than that? This is a theological problem for Christianity that no theologian to my knowledge has ever successfully addressed, though countless have tried.

Why Do We Suffer?

Mike, as you say the issues of pain and suffering, in the world, have been addressed by many theologians. The question of whether they have done so successfully or not depends on whether one accepts the answers so proffered.

The classic answer, one that is held closely by many with less complicated leanings, is that “the wages of sin is death”. It is the central point of Genesis.

If one is unable accept that to be human is to be special in the eyes of a creator and if one cannot accept that the human condition is a fallen one, spiritually, then there may be no acceptable answer. Pain and suffering, in this classic theological sense, addresses an extraordinary pleading for those life-forms which are human. God loves us but we “sinned”. Our sin is now expiated through the sacrifice of Christ but our connection to the flesh carries the burden of Original Sin (thank Augustine and especially Aquinas).

For those who have a view on the matter that is bound in scientific learning, it is clear that all matter in the universe is subject to the inexorable laws of entropy and matter that is DNA-based cannot rid itself of the inevitable march of decay. 

For pain and suffering to have no hold on human beings would require a universe with a different dynamic. In this universe, not only would we have no disease, but we would have eternal life. This universe would eventually be “standing room only”, assuming that the pleasure without pain of procreation was still allowed.

And in that conundrum there may lay an acceptable answer.  As a grandfather, I need to die so that my sons and daughter and granddaughter may have their own shot at life, as I already have. My dying requires my body to breakdown. In this sense, I voluntarily agree to my miseries because I love my family. The elderly Inuit had a marvellous sense of this sacrifice. When infirmity overtook you, you went out on the ice alone to await your fate. You provide sustenance for the polar bears and you relieved your family of the burden of caring for you.

Roger - your explanation fails

Roger, your explanation fails to explain why a child would be born with an horrific painful condition, or why so many people die from terrible causes (natural disasters, diseases) well before they have had a chance to reproduce. It also fails to explain why so much suffering should be involved; death does not have to be painful. The Problem of Natural Evil (which refers to natural disasters and diseases, both of which injure and destroy the good and the bad nondiscriminately) is proof that the Christian God does not exist, and Dawkins does a pretty good job of showing how ridiculous various attempts to explain it away have become - simply by quoting some of those efforts (see the book for details).

Jenny and F. Kendall, it is coffee calling the kettle black for Christians to accuse Dawkins of being intolerant. Among religious books there is no greater recipe for intolerance (except possibly the Koran) than the New Testament, which consistently demonises nonbelievers as satanic, deserving of eternal torture and damnation.

If It Didn't, I Would Be God

Mike, I was not attempting to volunteer something definitive. I have been on both sides of this conundrum for many years. Drifting alternatively as better explanations and insights come in to play.

However, you can consider this, it is a misunderstanding of Christian beliefs to assume that God will be a miracle worker and healer on call 24 hours a day. In fact, the New Testament is clear on the fact that suffering is very much a part of the human condition.

It is also a misunderstanding, theologically, to assume that this world is all that there is. It is indeed a tragedy from our pespective when young lives and/or productive lives are cut short. From the Christian's point of view, however, there is the promise of a better existence beyond this earthly one. Christ died to expiate all sin and prove, by his resurrection, that death is not final. Of course, if you are not a believer then whatever Dawkins says will make a lot of sense and the ideas above are ridiculous and nonsensical. I have agreed with Dawkins' sentiments at different times.

The focus on the injustice of death and its attendant miseries, however, often misses something remarkable.  What Dawkins does not address is the triumph of the religious spirit in a true believer. There are spiritual heroics that take place daily, almost completely unreported by the mainstream media that are so inspirational that one cannot help but be led to the conclusion that much of what we know of spirituality is extremely impoverished.

Unfortunately what passes for belief and the practice of belief is a pale shadow of the gold standard. Certainly, the religious institutions are no guide. We are then left with other prophets such as Dawkins. Perhaps we should ask ourselves why Richard has not done what many scientific inquirers have done in their chosen fields. Namely, immersed himself fully in this subject so that his opinions carry the weight of someone who has genuinely tried to live a spiritual life so that they can speak from well-rounded experience.

Dawkins categorically rejects intolerance

Jenny, to disagree with someone, even to ridicule their beliefs, does not constitute intolerance. Dawkins categorically states that he utterly opposes any sort of persecution of people on the basis of their beliefs. He is of the "all ideas on the table so the best ones can be sorted out" school. The history of Christianity and Islam, on the other hand, is largely a history of intolerance and persecution on the basis of belief.

Roger, yes, true believers often find profound strength, courage and inspiration from their beliefs, even when their beliefs are utterly false. Dare I point out that this also applies to true believers in Hitler (many of whom thought he was the Second Coming of Christ) - to take an extreme example. Or believers in Communism, or whatever. Not just religion.

I don't disagree with the spiritual path, just with religious dogma.

A Point Of Agreement

Mike, we share a common disagreement. I have no time for dogma when its purpose is to subjugate.

Unfortunately, much of the way that theology is expressed was formed in times when only a miniscule number of people had the opportunity to study and learn.

For the functionally illiterate and poorly educated, the institutions of religion produced teachings that left little room for reflection and disputation and no opportunity to study the small number of books that were available.

Today, we are not shackled in that way and culturally we are able to live independent lives with little overt influence in matters of belief and morals.

There are those who value the certainty of earlier times and who are driven to proselytise in a manner that rankles many of us. I look favourably on a spiritual life if it is lived openly and invites comment and questions by its example.

Finding the way

Roger, thank you. You say it all for me. I can never find the words or the way. That is probably because you I know come from a position of having immersed yourself in the subject, far more than I have, and certainly far more than many critics of religion and faith.

When living in Pakistan I immersed myself in Muslim culture and Islam and that removed all the preconceived ideas, all the prejudices and intolerance I had toward Islam, all stemming from ignorance. It gave me understanding. Knowing is one thing, understanding is quite another. Dawkins I suspect lacks understanding. 

Fiona, talking of quotes, when my aunt died in 1962 from stomack cancer, (a truly distressing time for her and all around her as Syd would understand only too well),  she penned the following lines during her final days. Like my mother she was the most gentle, caring and giving woman one could ever find and deeply religious all her life. She suffered many misfortunes in her life, but her faith never dimmed. My mother had the lines framed and hung in our old home, and it is amazing the number of people who on seeing them, ask if they could have a copy, and who wrote later to say what comfort they gave to both them and the dying in their family. The lines have gone around the world now.

My Very Last

When I receive the call to go

Beyond the sunset to the glow

There waits the Lord of life I know

With my robe and crown.

Let there be no sad regret

The past has gone, the future yet

to be, My sun has set

to rise eternally.

Let there be no sadness,

But only secret gladness

That I have reached the fulness

Of life at last.

There should be no weeping,

Or consolation seeking

For I'll be in HIs keeping

For evermore.

This woman wrote as a young girl that she 'wanted her life to shine with heavenly love'. That it did and the legacy she left her family is immeasurable.  Her example in the way she led her life reaches in her family down into the third generation, and no doubt will beyond that in time. Those who have as Roger said never tried to live a spiritual life can never hope to understand people like Emily Johnson. If they did they might realise that faith and religion has much to offer. Millions worldwide realise it, but millions do not.  

I later incorporated part of Emily's verse into a hymn which I then set to music for familys' who had lost a child, as I found in searching there were not many hymns in the Presbyterian Hymn book that seemed sutitable. I called it Just a Little Child, the first verse and chorus of which went:

Help us dear Lord to understand

Why such a precious life should end

Why thou wouldst give, yet take again

Our little child to thee.

Chorus:

For he was just a little child

When he was taken home

Oh help us Lord to understand,

For he was just a child.

I then incorporated much of Emily's poem in the other verses The hymn has been played in churches for such occasion and one day I plan to print the sheet music.

MIke, of course,  would see the loss of a child as evidence that there was no God. Believers may too for awhile, and some may abandon their faith, but those who truly believe do not. That I know. I doubt Dawkins could ever understand that.

Something Totally Unrelated

Jenny, I am glad that I have written something with a little value, at least to you. At another time, when appropriate, I will share some thoughts that you own writings have triggered for me.

However, as you may remember, I have a small business venture started which involves recording and publishing music. I would like to discuss this with you further. Perhaps, you can leave your contact details with David Roffey.


 

With pleasure Roger

Roger, I have asked David Roffey to send you my email address. I have often thought I would like to talk to you more. And we are in Melbourne about four times a year so there is a chance to meet if you would like. And I am sure you would have much in common with our friends in Jemusic. We all have common interests, in the spiritual and in music, though Ian has far more expertise and talent in the latter than I do and I do not think I can come any where near you in terms of theological knowledge and understanding, being a person of rather simple faith. So I am rather surprised that I set you thinking a bit!

I recall you were going to record your favourite sacred music when you got your studio set up so I hope that comes to fruition. I love the classical sacred music but when in Denmark I doubt I have heard anything to match some of the old Lutheran hymns. Even Ian said he could go to church every day after attending the little church in a village in Jutland where my mother's father lived as a child. Religion has given us so much through sacred music, great art, sculpture and architecture though I suspect the latter was at the expense of the poor. I always think of the Scottish Covenanter ministers, who after being driven from their churches by King Charles 1 and his cohorts simply held their services on a hillside, often using a rock as the altar.  Thousands died or were executed during what is now called the killing times in Scottish Presbyterian history.

You are quite right. Education and literacy has given people much greater control over their spiritual life than in centuries past. I do not think Christ ever intended his followers to vest in themselves the power over peoples lives that they came to exercise, in many cases so brutally. Thankfully my couple of greats uncles back freed my church totally from the shackles of powerful interests. I think I told you about the Rev David Welsh who as moderator of the Presybterian Church in 1863 led the walkout of over 400 ministers to form the Free Church of Scotland, (termed the Disruption) which was the peoples' reaction against the appointment of ministers by noble patonage. So our ministers are to this day "called" by the congregation, not appointed by some noble or powerful church bureaucracy. 

So yes, would like very much to talk and meet sometime if opportunity presents.

Mike, to ridicule what people believe is not in and of itself intolerant, but in relation to religious belief it is more likely to be taken as such than not in my opinion. And if an atheist describes Dawkins as intolerant, albeit agreeing with him there is no God, then I think that is more likely to be an objective opinion so is worth noting as F Kendall did. But I will read Dawkins when time permits and see for myself.

So you agree Mike

Mike, I think it is the pot that traditionally seeks to besmirch the kettle, rather than the contents of the pot, but never mind, it seems you would agree from that last statement that Dawkins is intolerant since you have not sought to dispute that claim in and of itself.

Why do we suffer?

Roger Fedyk, after 18 months of pain and suffering and with no hope of alleviating my position I have decided to take matters into my own hands. Unlike the elderly Inuit who went out onto the ice to await their fate, I am going to do it my way. I had no say about when I came into this world, but I can do something about the day I leave. With the help of a couple of friends around the world I have a nice little concoction mixed up with my favourite Glenfiddich, which I will take at the appropriate time. I have decided to exit this world on my birthday March 28th. Appropriate don't you think.

I have discussed this with my family and friends at great length, a couple of them who are religious say it is not my right to do this, they say "God will decide when the time is right". However their arguments are weak, and not based on logical thinking, besides my quality of life is almost none existent. I cannot even type this bloody piece without help, this is not living by any stretch of the imagination.

I have enjoyed my time here at WD, you are are all wonderful people in your own ways and I believe that between you all, maybe you you could solve all the problems in the world. Just be nice to each other and keep an open mind on everything. As my last "nudge" to you all I quote a Medical Specialist I was seeing in America, he said "If the medical profession could spend the amount of money that was spent on the last two Olymipcs on research, we could have a cure for your disease".

May your Gods go with you.

Craig R: Syd, thank you.

STRENGTH

Syd, stay as strong as you are, sport. Thanks for your many kind words.

Frère Jihad Jacques OAM née Woodforde, Coffin Cheater (so far, so good)

I applaud your courage, Syd!

I echo Frere Jihad's words and will take a similar position to yourself when my time comes, Syd. That you have been able to get a suitable cocktail is, in itself, good news. Others are not so lucky and have to resort to desperate measures.

Let the interfering God-botherers hang on to the bitter end if that's what they want. They have no right to inflict their beliefs upon you or I or anyone else.

Another thought that may assist, Syd, is understanding that death brings us freedom from life. I couldn't imagine anything worse than living forever quite frankly given the many trials and tribulations and hurts that life so bountifully provides especially as one gets older.

And as for coming back for another go, count me out! On my grave I'll put the words: I'm Glad It's Over. Don't open this Grave, Lord, I'm not Here!

Enjoy the Scotch, Syd. You will be missed. 

Courage

Daniel Smythe, thank you for your kind words, but I think the word courage should not be used in this matter. Courage is what I saw when I visited the children in the Oncology Ward, I spent some time with these great kids and they are an inspiration to everybody. They of course cannot make the decision I am making. One little boy Tim (not his proper name) who I spent some time with, told me all he wanted was to get better and play cricket with his brother, a simple thing really. Sadly he passed away before this could happen.

I remember walking outside one afternoon for a quick ciggy and as I sat on the wall with tears in my eyes I said to my wife, I would give 20 years of my life for all of those kids to have got up and gone home fit and well. Maybe this god-person should pop in and have a look at these kids.

Why in a rich country like Australia can we not find enough money for research into helping these kids?

God-person has much to answer for, Syd!

The Oncology Department is only one place that God will have to answer to me for, Syd! I've got a whole list of serious complaints ready for Him to answer for and he'd better have a bloody good lawyer is all I can say.

Syd, checkout this link. Mary Walsh, who runs the site, is a terrific person who, in spite of the God-botherers, is trying to get euthanasia legalised. She would be great to have on your side during this difficult period. And I stand by my use of the word 'courage', Syd.

Go gently, Syd

Dear Syd,

Quoting Dylan Thomas may seem appropriate, but then again, perhaps not. I can imagine you raging against the dying of the light, but also accepting it.

Thank you for your insight, for your incisiveness, for your reluctance to tolerate fools gladly (if at all). Thank you, in particular, for your compassion.

I wish you a most gentle departure.

Gentle departure

Fiona, thanks for your compassion, but it is funny I always wanted to screech up to the graveside at 200 km per hour and say "Wow what a ride". Perhaps next time round, who knows.

Sympathy Is Not Enough

Syd, I know that words, on their own, cannot make a difference when someone is in such pain and turmoil. What I do know is that I have seen many friends, afflicted with AIDS, die with such dignity that it was inspirational to those of us left behind. That is cold comfort to the sufferers, I am sure.

Nevertheless, if you are at this point of accomodation with the end of your earthly life, what you do is between you and the creator however you perceive it. It is not for us to judge even though our laws prohibit such a precipitous act.

There are no trite answers to satisfy and precious little justice or sense in the way that our lives unfold. What we are left with is our daily struggle to be the best that we can be on that day.

May the true God bless you and show you the way to peace and happiness.

Syd, Been thinking about you lately

Syd, I have been thinking about you lately and wondering how you were as it seems quite a while since you made that trip to the US. I am sorry to hear that life is so unbearable and even though a Christian myself I would respect your right to make the decision you have. I do not think anyone has the right to judge if they are not the one who is suffering.  May peace be yours Syd. 

Thanks Mike, will do

Mike, thanks and will do. Maybe God would have more time for me if I was not so foolhardy. But am stocked up on puffers again. A drop of rain would not go astray to clean the air. But the weather buffs tell us the El Nino has ended so here's hoping and praying that end is nigh at least. Read Jonah today while in bed. And also a long article examining the propositions in The Da Vinci Code novel. A good mix of reading for the day! Cheers.

Morality

Jenny Hume: "As for morality, David Roffey, well maybe we start by setting out what each of us think constitutes moral behaviour/conduct, and that I think would be most interesting. Most interesting indeed." 

Allow me, Jenny:

  1. Follow your light with respect for it and yourself. Turn your back on those, and those things, that would enslave you. Treat others as you would expect to be treated. Stay loyal to what you know is yours and is loyal to you. Don't jump at the noise in the streets. Don't jump at the fashion of the hour. How you choose to live your life is not entirely your business. It has consequences for others. Even if you have little regard for yourself do not compound this tragic mistake by overlooking what will happen to the kids. And the kids' kids. And ...
  2. Do not worship idols and dead cold stones. The idols are no better than you and their lives have no more meaning than yours. The stones, no matter how rare and pretty, have no life at all.
  3. Don't sell yourself cheap by badmouthing that and those that are dear to you.
  4. Take a day off at least once a week. Spend it on you and yours. Meditate on the things that are important. Push aside for awhile the things that aren't.
  5. Always respect your mother and father. Always. Of course they are only human. You're not? To dishonour them, in life or in death, is to dishonour yourself.
  6. Don't murder people.
  7. Do try to keep your hands off their sexual partners. Surely you've learned this one by now?
  8. Don't take their hard-earned property.
  9. Don't steal their reputations by lying about them and defaming them.
  10. Don't for a second be envious of others' material possessions and certainly not of their perceived station in life. You have no idea how richer or poorer they are than you. None whatsoever. Nor do they have any idea.

Jenny: a charming story

Jenny:  It is a charming story re the bird, anyway.  I love the image of the little bird tucked into its cot.

And who's to say it wasn't true?   Not me....On the other hand, she was certainly pointing the bone at herself.

Btw:   Have you had your operation?  I regret that it had slipped my mind.

Wrung out folks so excuse me please

You will have to excuse me folks for awhile. This old girl has been through the wringer the last couple of days. Getting a rare but very bad asthma attack and finding one's medications are out of date and totally useless, and being a long way from the nearest medical help takes its toll.  Not being able to breath is quite scary. 

So a mad 170 km round dash to the nearest hospital for emergency treatment has left me a bit of a wreck today. No doctor at the hospital of course so thank God for competent nurses and the old oxygen bottle.  And they'll always give you some stuff to go on with, since your quack down south says it will take three days to write and fax a script (bloody ridiculous) up to the nearest chemist, who then has to grab somone passing through and try and have it dropped off at the rural supply store 20ks down the track from you.  If it were not for dedicated people here who go more than the full mile like that, you would be up the creek well and truly. In many ways it is better to be out here for that reason.

But I'm still shaking like a leaf and wanting only to stay in bed and feel sorry for myself for the rest of the week. So no WD either. 

No F Kendall, the op was cancelled as I came down with a virus, and now this, so it will have to wait. Thanks for remembering anyway. BTW On the way home from the hospital yesterday I saw two little green leaf parrots. They do not usually live in this area. Strange, but comforting.  Geoff, Good start. Will have a go myself maybe when I am back on deck. Mike, I think we just have to agree to disagree on this one. No hard feelings.

Cheers.

Ten Guidelines For the 21 Century

All the best Jenny for a speedy recovery.

Regarding my principles of morality, sooner or later I will have to fess up so it may as well be now. They are less than entirely original.

Exodus

Deuteronomy

I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;

I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;

You shall have no other gods before me.

You shall have no other gods before me.

You shall not make for yourself an image, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

 

You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

Remember the sabbath day, and keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work. But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and consecrated it.

Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. For six days you shall labour and do all your work. But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, or your son or your daughter, or your male or female slave, or your ox or your donkey, or any of your livestock, or the resident alien in your towns, so that your male and female slave may rest as well as you. Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day.

Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

Honor your father and your mother, as the Lord your God commanded you, so that your days may be long and that it may go well with you in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

You shall not murder.

You shall not murder.

You shall not commit adultery.

Neither shall you commit adultery.

You shall not steal

Neither shall you steal

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbour.

You shall not covet your neighbor’s house;

Neither shall you covet your neighbour’s wife.

you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or slave, or ox, or donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

Neither shall you desire your neighbour’s house, or field, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

 

Correction Geoff

Geoff, I said Exodus 10. Of course I meant 20. That and Matthew 5. St James version. Beautifully written. Can't say I like the Good News version anymore than I like the new version of the Lord's Prayer so I insist on saying the old version. But my favourite Biblical passage is Ecclesiates ch 3. To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven....and so on.

I recall at my late brother's funeral my young nephew was to read that passage. But being a bit of a smart alec, with an IQ of 160 to rely on, plus the overconfidence of a sixteen year old, he did not ckeck it out before hand, despite my suggesting it might be a good idea. So with the big old family Bible mounted on the lectern, a packed church waited for his contribution, and waited, and waited as he appeared to peruse the passage. The problem was the old Bible had Roman numerals which he could not read, so he could not find the passage. Finally the minister walked over and pointed it out to him, and to give him his due, he read it magnificently.

His other contribution to the service was as a pall bearer. He was a big lad, all legs. At the cemetery he tripped and nearly fell in. Had I not been in such a state I think I might have seen the funny side of it all. But knowing my late brother and his great sense of humour, I am sure he is still laughing up there somewhere.  My brother's favourite country singer was Slim Dusty, and I discovered that I had arranged his funeral on what turned out to be Slim Dusty's birthday. He would have liked that touch, and we played Slim's version of The Traveller's Prayer. 

Everyone talked about that funeral for weeks afterwards. They said it was not like a funeral, it was such a beautiful service it was like a marriage between a man and his God. He would have liked that. He was a very religious man. Ah yes, memories, best left alone probably.

Goodnight. Not the best yet so signing off. Cheers.

God given start Geoff

Geoff: No need to fess up to anything. The biblical influence on you was patent. If there is one chapter of the Bible I know backwards it is Exodus 10. God gave us the basics some of which are fast disappearing along with God from our lives. As I said earlier, I doubt society will be the better for it, but time will tell no doubt.

And thanks, I am getting better slowly.

Fiona: Great news, Jenny. Take care, and best regards to Ian too.

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
© 2006, Webdiary Pty Ltd
Disclaimer: This site is home to many debates, and the views expressed on this site are not necessarily those of the site editors.
Contributors submit comments on their own responsibility: if you believe that a comment is incorrect or offensive in any way,
please submit a comment to that effect and we will make corrections or deletions as necessary.